Kosher Blog

Subway is not very good. Somehow I doubt that a mashgiach is going to make it better.

Hey for the Orthodox market this would be a boon. I have relatives in Cleveland and it is doing very well.

I found this link also:

http://www.tiyultalk.com/smf/index.php?topic=358.msg591;topicseen

If the concept had no merit they would not be poping up all over the country.

There’s also one coming to LA on Pico Blvd.

I hope it’s successful. Subway may not be as good as the best hero shops in Boston, but it’s pretty good and certainly much better than most other fast food chains out there, in terms of healthfulness and quality.

I’d be thrilled and so would my kids. Subway may not get as good as a locally owned sub shop, but it’s a vast improvement over Quiznos, which is treif city.

While I dont think that Subway is the best sub sandwiches, the reality is here NJ is such that unless a kosher establishment is under the constraints of a franchisor the cleanliness and organization quickly deterioates.

e.g. in Highland Park NJ, the Dunkin Donuts/Baskin Robins is clean, neat, well run and fairly priced. On the other end of town is a former DQ which is overpriced, helishly merchandized and not well maintained.

BS”D

I think Harlan hit the nail on the head- clean, bright, inviting. Too many grimy kosher establishments, and that may at one time have been considered quaint. But even when the establishment is nominally clean in the food prap/cooking/service area, what about the other areas? Bad policing of the dining room, little maintenance of restrooms, can lead to a poor dining experience. Especially in the restrooms, kosher places typically let consumers down. Franchises mandate cleanliness in all areas, and that’s an immediate plus.

Agree. The one in Cleveland (it resides at the front side of their JCC) is spotless, bright, and beautiful. Besides I could get a TOASTED meatball sub with pareve cheese (look and tasted like the thing), and tons of healthy fillings for only 4.99.

The Orthodox communties will love these places.

Can’t wait till it comes here.

But Harlan, the “overpriced, helishly merchandized and not well maintained former DQ” seems to do good business, which may explain why it did not become the bank that was threatened for that property two years ago. And you forgot to include our new Carvel, under either Vaad or other local supervision, a mere two blocks from DD/BR. If people are willing to tolerate the “former DQ” despite its shortcomings, the owners don’t have any reason to improve. Perhaps the community has such low expectations, this is acceptable?

the former DQ I believe has chalav yisrael ice cream and people in town were upset it was going to leave

Steve,

Sadly part of your observations are true: and this is broader than the specific example in Highland Park. Generally, (and for a myriad or reasons) the Kosher consumer does not seem to demand a quality product/service - only a kosher one. Therefore, I look foward to the introduction of more franchise operators who have a kosher product to address this shortcoming.

While frequently this circumstance is due to the fact that there may be no choice of providers/products, how the ice cream market develops in Highland Park, NJ will be interesting. As noted above, there are three Kosher establishements: Carvel, Baskin Robbins/Dunkin Donouts and the Dairy Deluxe. (and there is also the Corner Confectionary and Chocolate store which also serve hand dipped ice cream to the general communinty). I hope that market pressure will cause Dairy Deluxe’s new ownership to revisit their product and service. Its too early to tell.

Another facet of this topic that bears consideration: Establishments that boast Kosher oversight are public indicia of the Jewish community, like it or not. When they are allowed to become dirty and disorganized, this is then the public face of our community to society. It is hard to be a light to the nations when our public face is so darkened. Given that the monopolistic nature present in many communities, it is incumbant upon our Rabbis to consider this aspect when the issue their certificate of “kashrut”.

Amen to that Harlan.

While I agree with Harlan that dirty etc. kosher establishments aren’t doing the community any favors, I think there are already too many examples of Rabbis considering factors other than whether or not the food is kosher in issuing teudot, and that’s not a practice I’d like to see encouraged.

Cleanliness should indeed be a component in the decison of whether a food service establishement is kosher. Whether that it focused on the front of the house or the back of the house should not be material. That said, politics should be checked at the door. The reality seems to be the opposite, though.

Back on topic: it is because of this reality that I welcome the entrance of franchise establishements that set standards for all sorts of issues in order to maintain the franchise. Subway would be a great addition to my kosher community….and yours.

BS”D

Here’s where I disagree. Kashrus has absolutely nothing to do with cleanliness, and cleanliness should have nothing to do with issuing a teudah, except where lack of cleanliness makes it difficult to determine if adequate kashrus standards are being kept, except for the scenario below. For instance, if there are many flies, it is obvious that some may get in the food and cause a problematic kashrus scenario. County or city health inspectors, however, should monitor the cleanliness and sanitation of the establishements no less than they monitor nonkosher establishments, and whistle-blowers should not be ostracized for bringing the matter up with the secular overseers rather than the beis din. But to the extent that there’s no way around a possible halachic issue involving turning a food establishment over to secular authorities for action, then I suppose it falls upon the kashrus agency, as the agent for the beis din, to assure cleanliness and sanitation.

Craig: I respect your viewpoint (and like your wine) but the problem is a practical one. But practically speaking, how do we get past the current circumstance where many many kosher establishements are plapably unclean.

Entanglement with government agencies?
Consumer complaints to the local Beit Din?
Oversight by Kashrut agencies?

I think there are problems with each choice, but the third is a natural extention of oversight already in place.

(Lets also recognize that the oversight provided is already much more than limited to food. Two examples that come to mind: Do you believe that hasgacha would be given to a college bar where all the beverages were kosher, the food kosher, but the place was a haven for college age drunkeness and contact between the sexes? And arent the overseers suppose to preclude competition with a restriction on hasgacha where it would force the first facility out of buisness)

Doesn’t kosher mean clean?

Kosher only means ritually fit.

Harlan hits the nail on the head with regard to the extension of oversight to behaviors and conditions beyond food. If a giver of a hashgacha can pull it because a facility allows mixed-dancing or its servers are not appropriately dressed, as has happened and are reportedly part of the OU’s contract (http://jspot.org/?p=964) with certified establishments, then these organizations can certainly - and SHOULD - require a base-line of cleanliness, even above the Dept of Health standards. As has been said, it is a real blight on the Jewish community at large when those who aren’t just “used to it” walk into a filthy Kosher restaurant, as far too many are.

BS”D

With all due respect, the certification agencies are dealing with at least halachic problems in your examples, even if not kashrus problems. What you’re advocating is outside the bounds of their qualifications. If it’s halachically improper for a Jew to go to secular authorities with such issues (which it well may be, but it’s best paskened by a rabbi), then having the hashgacha oversee health issues is the only way to have oversight halachically. But to the extent that a Jew is allowed to complain to governmental overseers about perceived problems, it is the government agency’s job to oversee cleanliness and health. And then the consumer can vote with his pocketbook. Here in California, I’ll very rarely walk into a food establishment with less than an “A” rating by the health department. There are plenty of “B” ratings, but gettting an “A” is so easy that why frequent those rated lower. I obviously agree that there are way too many dirty food extablishments, but the health ratings are posted, and people have the opportunity to patronize elsewhere. A community with 1 or 2 kosher establishments may value their filty, pathetic little kosher place, and it would be a disservice for a mashgiach to close it based upon appearance, whereas where bunches of restaurants exist, the kosher consumer will use his own criteria to determine which establishments to patronize, and appearance might well be a determinant. Let it not go without saying that a spotless restaurant which stores food under improper conditions may present a greater health hazard than a filty restaurant which stores its food at the proper temperature, cools it properly, heats it properly and only accepts delivery of food which the distributor stored and transported properly. In such matters, health departments are trained to properly evaluate, and rabbis are not.

Lets be realistic here: the vaads frequently address items of really broad scope: and the constituent Rabbis will interject themselves into issues well beyond their religious ambit. Well, now its time to nudge the edge a bit further perhaps and in turn make observence of the mitzvot of kashrut less of an embarassment.

I heard from Simcha Wechsler that the kosher Subway in Brookline will IY”H be opening on Beacon Street by the end of October, after the High Holidays. I hope that the community (where I grew up) will support this establishment.

I live in Toronto, Canada and there has been a rumor now that there either is or soon will be a Glatt Kosher Subway. Anyone have confirmation on this? Also, Does anyone know if the new Glatt Kosher Subway in Los Angeles has opened or when? The site says “this summer” and we are nearing the end of July.

Subway has not yet opened in LA.

I heard the Baltimore Kosher Subway announcement is imminent.

Look what I found…

http://cagcreative.com/

It has snapshots from the Baltimore Kosher site …

http://www.ou.org/index.php/jobs/job-hiring/25114/

and here’s a posting akin to the boston one…

Chaim,

What’s imminent — before the end of august?

Avi,

yes. Actually today it seems…

See http://presence.baltiblogs.com/2007/07/29/press_release_baltimore_soon_to_offer_a_kosher_subway_restaurant.html and http://www.koshersubs.com

Ah, I see. Thanks - too bad it won’t open for a few months though.

We already have a Kosher Subway in Brooklyn. The food is nothing to write home about and it’s expensive comparatively. I’m not sure you should be jumping for joy over a possible opening.

I have been to both the Cleveland and Brooklyn Subways and they are light years apart. I am not sure Subway is so watchful over their NY places I guess. If a Subway opens and it is patterned after the Cleveland subway, those people that enjoy the subway experience, will be very happy. It is not for the “give me a 1/2-3/4 lb of meat on my sandwich” crowd (of which some of the Orthodox community is).

Any update on the L.A. Subway location being open yet? (We are running out of summer)

Regarding, cleaniless vs. kashrut, to an extent you can’t have kashrut without some level of cleanliness. How is a mashgiach supposed to keep track of what food is in a restaurant if the mashgiach can’t even find the floor. If my kitchen is disgusting or disorganized, how can I keep my dairy and meat separate?

Rabbi Eytan Eisen of United Kosher has confirmed that the kosher subway in Boston will be opening at the corner of Saint Paul Street and Beacon Street in Brookline. The Grand Opening is tentatively scheduled for October 15, 2007. It is unclear who the mashgiach will be at this point (according to Rabbi Eisen).

Where exactly? In the Holiday Inn?

I’d guess next to Jae’s(?) on the SE corner? That’s zoned for restaurants at least.

Seems a bit out of the way, but I’ll make the trip.

I live a stone’s throw from that intersection, and aside from Jae’s and the coffee shop within the Holiday Inn, there’s nowhere that a food service establishment could go. Neither of the two existing spots would be suitable for a Subway-type shop — who ever heard of a franchise sub shop at a hotel? Further, I’d say that such a location isn’t nearly far enough from the existing Subway in Coolidge Corner.

Maybe this mysterious Rabbi Eisen meant St. Mary’s Street and Beacon? St. Paul and Commonwealth?

And is that United Kosher of Monsey? What would they have to do with a store in Boston? And why is this post the only Google hit for that name and that organization?

All good points, jabbett. That location simply doesn’t make sense. Rabbi Eisen, if you’re out there, please chime in and let us know what you know about the kosher Subway, and how you know it.

The kosher subway in brooklyn 11230 won’t take subway coupons.Any kosher subway will seve pastrami, etc with carregenan because ALLE,INTERNATIONAL AND RUBAShkin deli products are water and carageenan products WHICH ARE INFERIOR to the kosher deli products of the 50’s, 60’s,70’s and 80’s.issac gellis,hod carmel,zion ,shmulka bernstein, etc NEVER HAD CARAGEENAN IN THEIR PRODUCTS.999,BESTS,HN,EMPIRE NATIONAL AND EVEN ABELES AND HEYMANN(made by international)DO NOT!!!!!!

According to one person I spoke to, who says they have spoken to someone who works for the guy in cleveland who is opening all of these kosher subways, the new kosher subway in the Boston area will actually be opening at the Newton JCC, not in Coolidge Corner. I have no confirmation of this, just what I heard.

Lame.

I flew all the way from Toronto Canada to Los Angeles California recently, and in search of the Kosher Subway, found it was still not open. Major disappointment. Any word if it is open now?

No, it isn’t. That’s a long way to fly just to visit a mediocre sandwich shop! If you were there anyway, you should have gone to Jeff’s and not bothered with Subway.

To Milhouse:

That wasn’t the reason I went,But the one in Israel closed down years ago and I never got to have a sub there - so since I was going to L.A. and heard the place was opening, I had hoped it would be constructed in time… And I didn’t know about Jeff’s before hand.

Well, Cleveland is not far from you - if you really want a sub you can drive down there one Sunday.

The LA shop’s still not open, but at the sign’s up! (Grasping at straws here)

Ya it was up 2 weeks ago when I went by there. It shouldn’t take this long to open a subway chain. Maybe they are having staffing issues.

Any word about Kosher Subway on Long Island?

Cedarhurst perhaps? Anywhere else?

The LA Glatt Kosher Subway opened yesterday. Unfortunately, still no sign of moshiach.

Ate a sandwich from the LA Kosher Subway yesterday. Both the first and last time! $1 an inch for the worst sandwich I ever ate in my life.

..hmmmm My experience was exactly the opposite. I had a meatball marinara sub and terriyaki subs and for the price, quality of product and cleanliness, they will see me back many times each week.

Schmuel

I’m not sure it was worth the 30 minute wait in line (my kids made me do it!), or how it compares to the non-kosher version (been too long), but my meatball sub was fine. I mean, at the end of the day, this is fast food we’re talking about.

NJ Jewish News reported that a kosher Subway is opening in Livingston, NJ.

The trend continues. Manhattan is getting its first kosher Subway soon, on the Upper West Side, Broadway between 78th and 79th Streets. No specific word on when it will open, but there is already a website: http://www.GlattKosherSubwayNYC.com.

Clarification - the website is not up yet for them…

see: http://www.kosher-ny.com/news.php?id=116
and http://www.kosher-ny.com/news.php?id=115

Any news on the kosher Subway in Boston? We’re visiting for Thanksgiving and I was hoping it would be open by now.

No news. It doesn’t appear to be opening any time soon. In fact, it is not even totally clear that one will be opening at all — just that interest has been expressed in opening one.

Darn. Another blow to the Boston kosher community.

Yep… we’ll just need to travel to other cities in search of medicore overpriced sandwiches.

At least they have those overpriced mediocre sandwiches. We’ve got nuthin’ (except Rubin’s, which ain’t half bad but still overpriced).

BS”D

As you know, I have not been a fan of the kosher Subways, based upon the amount of meat in each sandwich. However, I had never tasted one, only had seen them. Tonight, my wife brought home sandwiches for dinner from the new LA Subway. My wife brought home a foot-long Spicy Italian Sub to be split between us, and each kid got a half sandwich of her choice. I only tasted the Spicy Italian. The first thing is that it was a foot long sandwich for under $9. The second is that i tasted good, very well balanced. Evidently, they must have worked hard to formulate these things. Third, it was mostly salad, as we all knew, with little meat. Fourth, the amount of meat was adequate. It was about as much as I would have put on if I were making a sandwich of this type myself, given the cost of kosher meat. Fifth, if I had made the sandwich myself, it would have cost much less, but it certainly was reasonable for a store-bought meal. Finally, due to the fluffiness of the loaf, a half sandwich was not quite adequate for me in terms of filling. I was left feeling that a person could do a lot worse for the money and the quality than buying a kosher Subway sandwich, which surprised me.

As far as the meat is concerned, according to my daughters, who saw these packages being used, they must premeasure meat into plastic packages for use in each sized sandwich. Portion control of the most expensive ingredient must be a large part of the profitability equation. Once cost per sandwich is under control, variable costs are predicatable, and margins can be cut for school and other catering because fixed costs can be allocated elsewhere. The result is efficiency of production over the workday, and effective use of employees. I must take my hat off to these entrepreneurs, they are running their operation by proven management techniques.

The Baltimore Subway just started construction and will open in February sometime. Lots of seats. Baltimore will be a good location. I heard Silver Spring/Rockville area is coming next….

FYI - A kosher subway opened on North Ave in New Rochelle

I patronized the New Rochelle Subway yesterday. I had the chicken teriyaki and my kids ate pastrami and turkey subs. All came away satisfied and wishing we had something similar in Boston. Has anyone heard any recent news/rumors about the kosher Subway that’s supposedly coming here?