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	<title>Comments on: R&#8217; Heinemann Recap: Part 2</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.kosherblog.net/2007/05/03/r-heinemann-recap-part-2/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.kosherblog.net/2007/05/03/r-heinemann-recap-part-2/</link>
	<description>Finding the finer side of everyday kosher living</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 00:44:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Dovid</title>
		<link>http://www.kosherblog.net/2007/05/03/r-heinemann-recap-part-2/#comment-5573</link>
		<dc:creator>Dovid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Aug 2007 12:27:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kosherblog.net/?p=1025#comment-5573</guid>
		<description>Re:  Use of canned vegetables and the issue of bishul akum. Hearts of palm are mostly sold in canned form. Coconut milk as used in South East Asian cooking is also mainly available canned. These  are both canned in the country of origin rather than shipped in bulk and then canned in the country of sale. These cases would appear in my layman's eyes to require supervision. A similar case could be made for fruits like jackfruit or aki which are more often seen as canned.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re:  Use of canned vegetables and the issue of bishul akum. Hearts of palm are mostly sold in canned form. Coconut milk as used in South East Asian cooking is also mainly available canned. These  are both canned in the country of origin rather than shipped in bulk and then canned in the country of sale. These cases would appear in my layman&#8217;s eyes to require supervision. A similar case could be made for fruits like jackfruit or aki which are more often seen as canned.</p>
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		<title>By: seePea</title>
		<link>http://www.kosherblog.net/2007/05/03/r-heinemann-recap-part-2/#comment-5572</link>
		<dc:creator>seePea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 May 2007 22:28:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kosherblog.net/?p=1025#comment-5572</guid>
		<description>ok, i started the ball rolling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ok, i started the ball rolling.</p>
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		<title>By: jabbett</title>
		<link>http://www.kosherblog.net/2007/05/03/r-heinemann-recap-part-2/#comment-5571</link>
		<dc:creator>jabbett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 May 2007 13:23:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kosherblog.net/?p=1025#comment-5571</guid>
		<description>seePea -- if you'd like to follow up on the issue, I'll be happy to revise the notes with some authoritative information.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>seePea &#8212; if you&#8217;d like to follow up on the issue, I&#8217;ll be happy to revise the notes with some authoritative information.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: seePea</title>
		<link>http://www.kosherblog.net/2007/05/03/r-heinemann-recap-part-2/#comment-5570</link>
		<dc:creator>seePea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 May 2007 05:15:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kosherblog.net/?p=1025#comment-5570</guid>
		<description>Re #12 -
the web site case is indeed 'P.R.' if the fridge always kicks up the coolant on the 6th opening.

But that is not what was quoted as being in the speech, and it would be good to know if it is a mis-transcription or he actually said:
   "A new fridge today will measure the amount of time the compressor has run, and the number of times the door has been opened, before activating the heater."

This is NOT a 'P.R.' as it depends on how long the compressor was running in each to door openings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re #12 -<br />
the web site case is indeed &#8216;P.R.&#8217; if the fridge always kicks up the coolant on the 6th opening.</p>
<p>But that is not what was quoted as being in the speech, and it would be good to know if it is a mis-transcription or he actually said:<br />
   &#8220;A new fridge today will measure the amount of time the compressor has run, and the number of times the door has been opened, before activating the heater.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is NOT a &#8216;P.R.&#8217; as it depends on how long the compressor was running in each to door openings.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Rogovin</title>
		<link>http://www.kosherblog.net/2007/05/03/r-heinemann-recap-part-2/#comment-5569</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Rogovin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 May 2007 16:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kosherblog.net/?p=1025#comment-5569</guid>
		<description>The Star-K does an exceptional job of certifying appliances from a variety of manufacturers and encouraging them to add a sabbath (really yom tov) mode. From 1 Kitchen Aid model a few years ago to the list on their web site of many many models and manufacturers in just a few year it is very helpful.

Having said that, the Star-K is more machmir in certain areas than many Rabbis in the braoder community. While I don't question their motivations, by allowing them to become THE decisors for appliances, we have effectively adopted more machmir standards, when in fact, we might otherwise be more makel if we considered the rationale.

I don't know about the refrigerator example cited in the main article, but the Star-K told me that they would not work with manufacturers to adapt the timer function on dishwashers to allow them to be preset to wash dishes on Shabbat. While one could jury rig a timer onto the low end mechanical dishwashers, the newer electronic ones cannot be used with timers. Rabbi Heinemann does not allow diswashers to be used on Shabbat so he will not be involved with certification. While other RAbbis might allow such use, so long as one does not hear the operation (newer models are very quiet), since the Star-K is the agency that certifies appliances, manufacturers don't look elsewhere for certification and have abandoned this potential market.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Star-K does an exceptional job of certifying appliances from a variety of manufacturers and encouraging them to add a sabbath (really yom tov) mode. From 1 Kitchen Aid model a few years ago to the list on their web site of many many models and manufacturers in just a few year it is very helpful.</p>
<p>Having said that, the Star-K is more machmir in certain areas than many Rabbis in the braoder community. While I don&#8217;t question their motivations, by allowing them to become THE decisors for appliances, we have effectively adopted more machmir standards, when in fact, we might otherwise be more makel if we considered the rationale.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know about the refrigerator example cited in the main article, but the Star-K told me that they would not work with manufacturers to adapt the timer function on dishwashers to allow them to be preset to wash dishes on Shabbat. While one could jury rig a timer onto the low end mechanical dishwashers, the newer electronic ones cannot be used with timers. Rabbi Heinemann does not allow diswashers to be used on Shabbat so he will not be involved with certification. While other RAbbis might allow such use, so long as one does not hear the operation (newer models are very quiet), since the Star-K is the agency that certifies appliances, manufacturers don&#8217;t look elsewhere for certification and have abandoned this potential market.</p>
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		<title>By: Mordechai Cohen</title>
		<link>http://www.kosherblog.net/2007/05/03/r-heinemann-recap-part-2/#comment-5557</link>
		<dc:creator>Mordechai Cohen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 May 2007 12:42:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kosherblog.net/?p=1025#comment-5557</guid>
		<description>Yashar koach and thanks very much for the lecture notes.

Easy to read, and all very interesting.

KT,
Mordechai Cohen</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yashar koach and thanks very much for the lecture notes.</p>
<p>Easy to read, and all very interesting.</p>
<p>KT,<br />
Mordechai Cohen</p>
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		<title>By: Isaac</title>
		<link>http://www.kosherblog.net/2007/05/03/r-heinemann-recap-part-2/#comment-5568</link>
		<dc:creator>Isaac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 May 2007 18:01:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kosherblog.net/?p=1025#comment-5568</guid>
		<description>Shabbat keepers should have no problem offsetting the small amount of additional energy consumed by putting their refrigerators into Shabbat mode with the energy saved by not driving anywhere, not operating their computers or TVs, etc.

Anyway, what discussion do you think this issue is worthy of? I assume that you aren't suggesting that we should discuss whether R' Heinemann and his co-religionists should ignore this aspect of the Laws of Shabbat, given the environmental considerations. That's clearly a non-starter. Are you suggesting that we should discuss ideas for a more energy-efficient Shabbat mode?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shabbat keepers should have no problem offsetting the small amount of additional energy consumed by putting their refrigerators into Shabbat mode with the energy saved by not driving anywhere, not operating their computers or TVs, etc.</p>
<p>Anyway, what discussion do you think this issue is worthy of? I assume that you aren&#8217;t suggesting that we should discuss whether R&#8217; Heinemann and his co-religionists should ignore this aspect of the Laws of Shabbat, given the environmental considerations. That&#8217;s clearly a non-starter. Are you suggesting that we should discuss ideas for a more energy-efficient Shabbat mode?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.kosherblog.net/2007/05/03/r-heinemann-recap-part-2/#comment-5567</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 May 2007 15:14:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kosherblog.net/?p=1025#comment-5567</guid>
		<description>These new fridges seem to help with the whole Tikkun Olum thing though. Requesting appliances that are detrimental to the environment seems... worthy of discussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These new fridges seem to help with the whole Tikkun Olum thing though. Requesting appliances that are detrimental to the environment seems&#8230; worthy of discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: jabbett</title>
		<link>http://www.kosherblog.net/2007/05/03/r-heinemann-recap-part-2/#comment-5566</link>
		<dc:creator>jabbett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 May 2007 14:12:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kosherblog.net/?p=1025#comment-5566</guid>
		<description>SeePea-- Here's how the Star-K defines &lt;em&gt;psik reisha&lt;/em&gt;:
&lt;blockquote&gt;However, if this unintended consequence must result in the prohibited activity being done, it is as if one had initially intended to perform the prohibited action, and the action is prohibited (i.e. dragging a heavy bench on soft earth where it will surely make a groove in the ground). This is called a psik reisha.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Opening a refrigerator X number of times, and as a direct result activating the heater to melt the coils, seems to qualify.  I believe the rabbi focussed on this matter because it is more inconspicuously pernicious than the lights and digital readouts.

Curious-- If you set up an appliance to do something automatically over Shabbat without your interaction, like using a timer to enable a hot plate or turn on a light, that's just fine.  But if you interact with an appliance and directly cause it to perform a &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/39_categories_of_activity_prohibited_on_Shabbat" rel="nofollow"&gt;prohibited labor&lt;/a&gt;, that's prohibited.  Some actions are obviously in violation, like flipping a light switch - you flip it, the light goes on.  Some are less obvious, like these new fridges -- open the door 6 times and the heater goes on, or activate the compressor for 30 minutes and the heater goes on.  Thankfully, we have rabbinic organizations &lt;a href="http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.11/kosher.html?pg=1&#38;topic=kosher&#38;topic_set=" rel="nofollow"&gt;who employ electrical engineers&lt;/a&gt; to find out for certain what's going on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SeePea&#8211; Here&#8217;s how the Star-K defines <em>psik reisha</em>:</p>
<blockquote><p>However, if this unintended consequence must result in the prohibited activity being done, it is as if one had initially intended to perform the prohibited action, and the action is prohibited (i.e. dragging a heavy bench on soft earth where it will surely make a groove in the ground). This is called a psik reisha.</p></blockquote>
<p>Opening a refrigerator X number of times, and as a direct result activating the heater to melt the coils, seems to qualify.  I believe the rabbi focussed on this matter because it is more inconspicuously pernicious than the lights and digital readouts.</p>
<p>Curious&#8211; If you set up an appliance to do something automatically over Shabbat without your interaction, like using a timer to enable a hot plate or turn on a light, that&#8217;s just fine.  But if you interact with an appliance and directly cause it to perform a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/39_categories_of_activity_prohibited_on_Shabbat" rel="nofollow">prohibited labor</a>, that&#8217;s prohibited.  Some actions are obviously in violation, like flipping a light switch - you flip it, the light goes on.  Some are less obvious, like these new fridges &#8212; open the door 6 times and the heater goes on, or activate the compressor for 30 minutes and the heater goes on.  Thankfully, we have rabbinic organizations <a href="http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.11/kosher.html?pg=1&amp;topic=kosher&amp;topic_set=" rel="nofollow">who employ electrical engineers</a> to find out for certain what&#8217;s going on.</p>
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		<title>By: Curious</title>
		<link>http://www.kosherblog.net/2007/05/03/r-heinemann-recap-part-2/#comment-5565</link>
		<dc:creator>Curious</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 May 2007 02:01:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kosherblog.net/?p=1025#comment-5565</guid>
		<description>I'm confused -- I thought the "no work" rule on Shabbos applied to you, not your appliances.  So if the fridge is going on and off during the day, that's not you...you're not making it go on and off, it does it by itself.  So how does this violate any commandments?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m confused &#8212; I thought the &#8220;no work&#8221; rule on Shabbos applied to you, not your appliances.  So if the fridge is going on and off during the day, that&#8217;s not you&#8230;you&#8217;re not making it go on and off, it does it by itself.  So how does this violate any commandments?</p>
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