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	<title>Comments on: Should poison bear a heksher?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.kosherblog.net/2006/07/12/should-poison-bear-a-heksher/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.kosherblog.net/2006/07/12/should-poison-bear-a-heksher/</link>
	<description>Finding the finer side of everyday kosher living</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 22:50:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Ari</title>
		<link>http://www.kosherblog.net/2006/07/12/should-poison-bear-a-heksher/#comment-16715</link>
		<dc:creator>Ari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Oct 2008 16:05:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kosherblog.net/?p=928#comment-16715</guid>
		<description>Soap does not require a hechsher because it is not food. If a particular type of soap were edible (which could be possible, although unlikely, I suppose), then it would be non-kosher if it contained significant non-kosher ingredients. However, any ingredient present in less than 1/60 shouldn't be a problem since it is clearly not added for taste (unless the product is advertised as being edible or tasty). Edible means that even a dog might eat it (although this is kind of a vague standard).

So, I suppose a hechsher on something like soap might be justifiable on the basis that soap could conceivably be edible. The hechsher serves to tell us that this soap is either not edible, or it is is made entirely of kosher ingredients. Something like aluminum foil seems more problematic because that is clearly not edible, but I wonder if foils are ever coated with a film of some edible substance. Again, I think that is very unlikely, but I don't know much about that industry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Soap does not require a hechsher because it is not food. If a particular type of soap were edible (which could be possible, although unlikely, I suppose), then it would be non-kosher if it contained significant non-kosher ingredients. However, any ingredient present in less than 1/60 shouldn&#8217;t be a problem since it is clearly not added for taste (unless the product is advertised as being edible or tasty). Edible means that even a dog might eat it (although this is kind of a vague standard).</p>
<p>So, I suppose a hechsher on something like soap might be justifiable on the basis that soap could conceivably be edible. The hechsher serves to tell us that this soap is either not edible, or it is is made entirely of kosher ingredients. Something like aluminum foil seems more problematic because that is clearly not edible, but I wonder if foils are ever coated with a film of some edible substance. Again, I think that is very unlikely, but I don&#8217;t know much about that industry.</p>
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		<title>By: sioux</title>
		<link>http://www.kosherblog.net/2006/07/12/should-poison-bear-a-heksher/#comment-16537</link>
		<dc:creator>sioux</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 02:51:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kosherblog.net/?p=928#comment-16537</guid>
		<description>Does this mean ANY soap can be cosidered Kosher and used in Shul.....what about additives E numbers/colourings that permeate the entire product...but may technically be compliant with the 1/60 the `general rule`....not to mention unethical animal testing ....soaps and shampoos squirted into the eyes of rabbits to check for irritation to eyes and membranes/skins of humans.......even if the product is no longer tested, it was initially...how do we stand on using a product some 20 years after cruel and unecessary testing was stopped?

Thanks
Sioux</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does this mean ANY soap can be cosidered Kosher and used in Shul&#8230;..what about additives E numbers/colourings that permeate the entire product&#8230;but may technically be compliant with the 1/60 the `general rule`&#8230;.not to mention unethical animal testing &#8230;.soaps and shampoos squirted into the eyes of rabbits to check for irritation to eyes and membranes/skins of humans&#8230;&#8230;.even if the product is no longer tested, it was initially&#8230;how do we stand on using a product some 20 years after cruel and unecessary testing was stopped?</p>
<p>Thanks<br />
Sioux</p>
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		<title>By: Ellyn Hirsch</title>
		<link>http://www.kosherblog.net/2006/07/12/should-poison-bear-a-heksher/#comment-3322</link>
		<dc:creator>Ellyn Hirsch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Feb 2007 19:55:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kosherblog.net/?p=928#comment-3322</guid>
		<description>Great info.  Thank you.  I was concerned because I cleaned my oven (while it was still hot), with a cleanser that didn't have a hechsher, and I thought that I treifed it as well as my countertops that I sprayed this cleanser on.  I feel so much better.  Thank you and Good Shabbos!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great info.  Thank you.  I was concerned because I cleaned my oven (while it was still hot), with a cleanser that didn&#8217;t have a hechsher, and I thought that I treifed it as well as my countertops that I sprayed this cleanser on.  I feel so much better.  Thank you and Good Shabbos!</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Price</title>
		<link>http://www.kosherblog.net/2006/07/12/should-poison-bear-a-heksher/#comment-3321</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Price</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Aug 2006 11:57:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kosherblog.net/?p=928#comment-3321</guid>
		<description>I don't believe any of the certifier. They certify they get money but if something is wrong with the product we can't blame them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t believe any of the certifier. They certify they get money but if something is wrong with the product we can&#8217;t blame them.</p>
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		<title>By: ChaimW</title>
		<link>http://www.kosherblog.net/2006/07/12/should-poison-bear-a-heksher/#comment-3320</link>
		<dc:creator>ChaimW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Jul 2006 03:22:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kosherblog.net/?p=928#comment-3320</guid>
		<description>The supervising agencies, and the largest one in particular, have created an industry out of thin air and have ultimately done Judaism a large disservice - not a service.  This is what a rav is for.

It is a pet peeve of mine that things that were universally kosher in the old days are no longer acceptable because they don't have a supervising agency, eg, many shnaps and fish from a non-Jew.  This is madness and it ain't cheap.  And I don't buy that trash that they protect the unwitting consumer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The supervising agencies, and the largest one in particular, have created an industry out of thin air and have ultimately done Judaism a large disservice - not a service.  This is what a rav is for.</p>
<p>It is a pet peeve of mine that things that were universally kosher in the old days are no longer acceptable because they don&#8217;t have a supervising agency, eg, many shnaps and fish from a non-Jew.  This is madness and it ain&#8217;t cheap.  And I don&#8217;t buy that trash that they protect the unwitting consumer.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey Rappoport</title>
		<link>http://www.kosherblog.net/2006/07/12/should-poison-bear-a-heksher/#comment-3319</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey Rappoport</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Jul 2006 19:08:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kosherblog.net/?p=928#comment-3319</guid>
		<description>Andy J asked if we knew that one soap was made from pig fat and the other soap was kosher, wouldn't we rather use the kosher soap.  Most people would answer that the kosher soap is prefered.  However, that would be a sociological answer and not a halachic answer.  According to halacha, as Andy noted, one can certainly use non kosher soap on kosher dishes.  However, we do need to be careful of how we characterize our answer.  Sociological preferences are not halacha.    Second: He mentions that there could be a problem of putting a treif substance into a kosher cup thereby treifing up the cup.  Actually, that would not apply as the substance is not food and would not treif the cup because there is no issue of kashruth.  And even if it were actually treif, the cup would not be treifed (can we make up that word?).  Third- he raises the issue of a dog drinking alcohol.  That would not be relevant.  Alcohol is poison.  Do dogs drink poison or do they have some sort of animal warning system?

Part Two:  In Europe, they put out large lists of acceptable foods that have no certification.  For example, see the London Beit Din's kosher guide.  The main reason for that is that they have so few certified products by comparison to what we have here.  Yet, in spite of that, they manage to keep kosher by having a good knowledge of the products that are GRAK (generally recognized as kosher).  Over on the Kosher Nexus, we have on occasion listed many GRAK items (plain seltzer, regular tea, etc).  We need to know more about the things we buy as Jon pointed out.  Not everything needs a hechsher.  Why filtered spring water carries a hechsher is beyond me.

Part three
Every year, products come on the market with a hechsher that leaves us wondering.  In the Kosher Nexus, we wrote about KP window cleaner.  I guess if you run out of plates, you can eat off the window.  Really- KP window cleaner?  Was P T Barnum Jewish?

Part Four
I have to agree with Jon.  Rubbing Alcohol should not have a hechsher.  It frightens me that someone might drink the stuff.  And according to the research I did, it seems that people do drink the stuff all the time and end up in the hospital.  Some even die.

Part five
Easy hechsherim (like on spring water)do not cost very much, and the low fees that the hechsher company collects may be used to off set the much higher fee they might have to collect from someone else.  So, in the end, it is a trade off.  Company X pays a little, but it allows the hechsher company to subsidize Company Q.  So what could be bad?  Alcohol with a hechsher seems bad to us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andy J asked if we knew that one soap was made from pig fat and the other soap was kosher, wouldn&#8217;t we rather use the kosher soap.  Most people would answer that the kosher soap is prefered.  However, that would be a sociological answer and not a halachic answer.  According to halacha, as Andy noted, one can certainly use non kosher soap on kosher dishes.  However, we do need to be careful of how we characterize our answer.  Sociological preferences are not halacha.    Second: He mentions that there could be a problem of putting a treif substance into a kosher cup thereby treifing up the cup.  Actually, that would not apply as the substance is not food and would not treif the cup because there is no issue of kashruth.  And even if it were actually treif, the cup would not be treifed (can we make up that word?).  Third- he raises the issue of a dog drinking alcohol.  That would not be relevant.  Alcohol is poison.  Do dogs drink poison or do they have some sort of animal warning system?</p>
<p>Part Two:  In Europe, they put out large lists of acceptable foods that have no certification.  For example, see the London Beit Din&#8217;s kosher guide.  The main reason for that is that they have so few certified products by comparison to what we have here.  Yet, in spite of that, they manage to keep kosher by having a good knowledge of the products that are GRAK (generally recognized as kosher).  Over on the Kosher Nexus, we have on occasion listed many GRAK items (plain seltzer, regular tea, etc).  We need to know more about the things we buy as Jon pointed out.  Not everything needs a hechsher.  Why filtered spring water carries a hechsher is beyond me.</p>
<p>Part three<br />
Every year, products come on the market with a hechsher that leaves us wondering.  In the Kosher Nexus, we wrote about KP window cleaner.  I guess if you run out of plates, you can eat off the window.  Really- KP window cleaner?  Was P T Barnum Jewish?</p>
<p>Part Four<br />
I have to agree with Jon.  Rubbing Alcohol should not have a hechsher.  It frightens me that someone might drink the stuff.  And according to the research I did, it seems that people do drink the stuff all the time and end up in the hospital.  Some even die.</p>
<p>Part five<br />
Easy hechsherim (like on spring water)do not cost very much, and the low fees that the hechsher company collects may be used to off set the much higher fee they might have to collect from someone else.  So, in the end, it is a trade off.  Company X pays a little, but it allows the hechsher company to subsidize Company Q.  So what could be bad?  Alcohol with a hechsher seems bad to us.</p>
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		<title>By: muse</title>
		<link>http://www.kosherblog.net/2006/07/12/should-poison-bear-a-heksher/#comment-3318</link>
		<dc:creator>muse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Jul 2006 08:32:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kosherblog.net/?p=928#comment-3318</guid>
		<description>Repost this before Pesach!

I always get a kick out of KP bleach.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Repost this before Pesach!</p>
<p>I always get a kick out of KP bleach.</p>
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		<title>By: judi</title>
		<link>http://www.kosherblog.net/2006/07/12/should-poison-bear-a-heksher/#comment-3317</link>
		<dc:creator>judi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Jul 2006 01:36:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kosherblog.net/?p=928#comment-3317</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the quick response.  I agree that consumer pressure can drive the frenzy for unnecessary hechsherim, but the ones pushing the current craze for mehadrin-mehadrin-mehadrin-everything are the rabbis of the shuls that answer to the OU... you can probably see where I'm going here.

Look, I can go to my dentist and say, for whatever crazy reason, that I need a molar pulled- even though there's no legitimate reason for doing so.  He can either refuse and, possibly, recommend that I see a psychologist (correct answer), or he can reason that I won't be easily talked out of it and I might find another dentist who'll humor me and pull the tooth, so he might as well make a few bucks for himself (wrong answer!).

My point is, it's the rabbis who are advocating the current wave of stringencies, and their congregants aren't going to ease up until the rabbis say it's okay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the quick response.  I agree that consumer pressure can drive the frenzy for unnecessary hechsherim, but the ones pushing the current craze for mehadrin-mehadrin-mehadrin-everything are the rabbis of the shuls that answer to the OU&#8230; you can probably see where I&#8217;m going here.</p>
<p>Look, I can go to my dentist and say, for whatever crazy reason, that I need a molar pulled- even though there&#8217;s no legitimate reason for doing so.  He can either refuse and, possibly, recommend that I see a psychologist (correct answer), or he can reason that I won&#8217;t be easily talked out of it and I might find another dentist who&#8217;ll humor me and pull the tooth, so he might as well make a few bucks for himself (wrong answer!).</p>
<p>My point is, it&#8217;s the rabbis who are advocating the current wave of stringencies, and their congregants aren&#8217;t going to ease up until the rabbis say it&#8217;s okay.</p>
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		<title>By: jabbett</title>
		<link>http://www.kosherblog.net/2006/07/12/should-poison-bear-a-heksher/#comment-3316</link>
		<dc:creator>jabbett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Jul 2006 01:08:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kosherblog.net/?p=928#comment-3316</guid>
		<description>Chaim-- To get started on the "8000 ingredients," check out &lt;a href="http://www.kosherquest.org/index.asp?theaction=nocert" rel="nofollow"&gt;Rabbi Eidlitz's list&lt;/a&gt; over at KosherQuest.org.  If you're the cynical type, note that he has no financial interest in certifying kosher food, so he can be more upfront about the subject.

The CRC also maintains a few useful lists:
&lt;a href="http://www.crcweb.org/kosher/consumer/spiceList.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;Spices&lt;/a&gt;
&lt;a href="http://www.crcweb.org/kosher/consumer/dryfruitList.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;Dried Fruits&lt;/a&gt;
&lt;a href="http://www.crcweb.org/kosher/consumer/liquorList.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;Booze&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chaim&#8211; To get started on the &#8220;8000 ingredients,&#8221; check out <a href="http://www.kosherquest.org/index.asp?theaction=nocert" rel="nofollow">Rabbi Eidlitz&#8217;s list</a> over at KosherQuest.org.  If you&#8217;re the cynical type, note that he has no financial interest in certifying kosher food, so he can be more upfront about the subject.</p>
<p>The CRC also maintains a few useful lists:<br />
<a href="http://www.crcweb.org/kosher/consumer/spiceList.html" rel="nofollow">Spices</a><br />
<a href="http://www.crcweb.org/kosher/consumer/dryfruitList.html" rel="nofollow">Dried Fruits</a><br />
<a href="http://www.crcweb.org/kosher/consumer/liquorList.html" rel="nofollow">Booze</a></p>
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		<title>By: jabbett</title>
		<link>http://www.kosherblog.net/2006/07/12/should-poison-bear-a-heksher/#comment-3315</link>
		<dc:creator>jabbett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Jul 2006 00:59:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kosherblog.net/?p=928#comment-3315</guid>
		<description>Hi, Judi.  It was my hope through providing the narrative to show that things aren't as clear cut as agencies "preying on naievete."  First, I was informed that the amounts charged in such situations (certifying inherently kosher foods) are not such that the product's price is affected; it's overwhelmingly the case that additional sales offset the cost of certification -- both points that I made subtly in my post.

I was also told a story of a food manufacturer who asked an agency to certify the machine grease that lets cans move freely along their conveyor belt. Since the request was absurd, the agency refused, but the manufacturer insisted they had to have kosher machine grease.  It was discovered that the manufacturer misunderstood his rabbinic administrator who demanded that all supplies entering the facility have kosher certification.  The agency spoke with the rabbi, cleared up the situation, and kept the company from paying unnecessary fees for irrelevant certification.

It's healthy to question authority, but ultimately the consumer and his dollars hold the power.  If it weren't lucrative for companies to certify their products, they simply wouldn't do it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, Judi.  It was my hope through providing the narrative to show that things aren&#8217;t as clear cut as agencies &#8220;preying on naievete.&#8221;  First, I was informed that the amounts charged in such situations (certifying inherently kosher foods) are not such that the product&#8217;s price is affected; it&#8217;s overwhelmingly the case that additional sales offset the cost of certification &#8212; both points that I made subtly in my post.</p>
<p>I was also told a story of a food manufacturer who asked an agency to certify the machine grease that lets cans move freely along their conveyor belt. Since the request was absurd, the agency refused, but the manufacturer insisted they had to have kosher machine grease.  It was discovered that the manufacturer misunderstood his rabbinic administrator who demanded that all supplies entering the facility have kosher certification.  The agency spoke with the rabbi, cleared up the situation, and kept the company from paying unnecessary fees for irrelevant certification.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s healthy to question authority, but ultimately the consumer and his dollars hold the power.  If it weren&#8217;t lucrative for companies to certify their products, they simply wouldn&#8217;t do it.</p>
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