“Kosher” Dunkin Donuts stores serving pork get outed
While the controversy over Ner Tamid’s certification of Dunkin Donuts locations is well known to the kosher community, it seems to have finally spilled over into the secular press. New York Magazine reports:
When is a restaurant that serves bacon considered kosher? To most Orthodox rabbis, the answer is easy: never. But Staten Island rabbi Dov Hazdan has been granting his own kosher certification to city Dunkin’ Donuts franchises that have served bacon, ham, and sausage, the trayf trifecta. “The meats all come prepackaged,” says Hazdan. “The employees have to wear gloves. I do not condone mixing kosher with nonkosher.” In Manhattan, Hazdan has also given his ner tamid K stamp to Pongal Vegetarian, an Indian restaurant that operates during the Jewish Sabbath, another no-no among the pork police. Hazdan was recently fired as the kosher supervisor at a Dunkin’ franchise on 34th Street after it received complaints from the Yeshiva University community about the rabbi and the pork. Spokesmen for the four top kosher-certifying agencies said they would never approve a restaurant that served nonkosher meats or operated on the Sabbath. “Who knows what goes on behind the counter?” says one Staten Island rabbi of Hazdan-approved shops. Hazdan insists his methods are 100 percent kosher. “I know a lot of people with beards who go into my stores,” he says.
I guess it makes sense that he verifies his authenticity by noting that the bacon is delivered to the store by a band of bearded santa clauses, and therefore everything is kosher.
In Manhattan, Hazdan has also given his ner tamid K stamp to Pongal Vegetarian, an Indian restaurant that operates during the Jewish Sabbath, another no-no among the pork police.
Maybe the “pork police” don’t like it, but halakhic Jews have less reason for concern. Only Jews are required to keep Shabbos. There are plenty of Gentile-owned kosher restaurants in my area that are open on Saturday, and the community accepts them.
There are plenty of Gentile-owned kosher restaurants in my area the are open on Saturday and the community accepts them.
What happens if the pilot light in the oven goes out on Shabbat? Does a non-Jew turn it back on, thus making the food bishul akum? Or do they close for the rest of the day?
I’m curious as to what agency or Rabbi certifies them.
I’ve heard of bakeries owned and run by non-Jews being open on Saturday, but I’ve never heard of a restaurant being open on Shabbat and certified by someone that was widely accepted.
Firstly, why would there be a pilot light? Who wants those anymore other than observant Jews?
Secondly, why is an observant Jew eating in a restaurant on Shabbos?
Lawrence,
Please give me an example of restaurant open on Shabbos that is under Orthodox superivision and is a level of supervision that is generally accepted.
I’m not saying that it is impossible, just that I have never heard of it.
“Generally accepted” is always an unstable term.
Café Viva, a vegetarian Italian eatery on Manhattan’s Upper West Side, is accepted by the local modern orthodox community. So are Caravan of Dreams, a vegan restaurant in the West Village, and the string of kosher, vegetarian Indian restaurants in the upper East 20s.
When you say that Cafe Viva is accepted by the MO community, do meant that people chose to eat there or that their Rabbis actually told them that it was OK.
Caravan of Dreams has non-Jews checking vegetable for bugs. To the best of my knowledge, there is no basis in halachah for relying on a non-Jew to check for bugs.
A number of Carvel restaurants which are open on Shabbos were undar Kaf-K supervision. This was the case until recently for the Carvel on Avenue M in Brooklyn.
A number of Carvel restaurants which are open on Shabbos are under Kaf-K supervision. This was the case until recently for the Carvel on Avenue M in Brooklyn.
The same Rabbi certifies Amy’s Organic Foods (canned and frozen) that are found in many upscale groceries. They chose the firm because it fits with their family-run business (which is in California, not Staten Island). I have been advised not to rely on this kashrut.
As for being open on Saturday, being open on Saturday in and of itself is not a problem. Dunkin Donuts that are under reliable hashgacha (unlike this one) such as in Highland Park, NJ, Teaneck, NJ, Woodmere, NY, etc are all open on Shabbat. The only issue is that Jews cannot eat food there until enough time after Shabbat has passed for the restaurant to have prepared the food after Shabbat (whether it did so or not). Greener Pastures was a widely accepted restaurant under a reliable Mashgiach (who also now certifes an Indian restaurant in NY with the same issue. GP had other issues, since it was Jewish owned and ’sold’ its business each week. Non-Jewish-owned manufacturing plants are open and prepare all kinds of kosher food on Shabbat under supervision. I don’t see the difference between a plant kitchen and a restaurant kitchen when it comes to whether the food served on a weekday is kosher or not.
As noted above, the Vaad in Highland Park, NJ (of which R. Luban of OU is a member.) certifies at least two establishments ( Dunkin Donuts and Dairy Deluxe) that are owned by people who are of other faiths and are open on Shabbat.
If an OU rabbi finds this acceptable, then clearly the Open on Shabbat issue is a red herring. I would expect that the pig products are over the clear red line though.
In the Pacific Northwest, Bamboo Garden in Seattle, Pabla Indian Cuisine in Renton, Namasthe in Redmond, Teapot Vegetarian in Redmond, and Krispy Kreme in Seattle are all open on Shabbat and have certification from the Vaad of Seattle (www.seattlevaad.org)
Note that none of them serve meat and that the dairy ones are cholov stam.
If anyone wants to open a meat restaurant in Seattle, by the way, the market is wide open…
Or if anyone wants to open a vegetarian Indian restaurant in Boston :)
To the best of my knowledge, there is no basis in halachah for relying on a non-Jew to check for bugs.
There is no basis in halachah for anything having to do with checking for bugs. Insects in vegetables were not considered an issue until recently because they were thought to be spontaneously generated. All the rules about who can be “trusted” are based on other areas of halachah. There is plenty of room for disagreement.
That’s despicable–who would do such a thing? Sigh.
Is it not true that there are still bakeries owned by Jews operating on Shabbos under Boston Vaad supervision?
Only up until lately no one really checked their vegetables very carefully for bug infestation. I don’t believe that those families that are attempting to check for bugs really know what to look for as they are checking. Due to seasonal changes in Israel, two manufacturers of frozen vegetables are no longer certified as kosher due to the increase of bug infestation.
There are a few Dunkin Donut products due to formulation that are not kosher. Rabbi Hazdan also gives(??) supervision to a flour mill too far away for him to check regularly. In the U.S. people are not accustomed to sifting their flour and I personally have opened bags of flour right after Pesach off the store shelves and have found a few to be infested.
Indian food utilizes all kinds of spices. Next time you use black pepper check carefully for clumps and webs as they are signs of infestation. Amongst some of the things that one should be aware of in Indian cooking is the oil and clarified butters that are used. If there is no on-premises mashgiach in these restaurants; what is there to prevent the waiters or owners to bring in their own food from home and warm it up for their families in the same kosher pans /ovens?
How many of you have now seen that there are a lot of pickles and vegetables that are imported from Middle Eastern countries, they utilize wine vinegar but it is just listed as vinegar. Some have even been found with hashgachot on them and there is a problem with the products. Artichokes - bugs galore and there are other culprits as well.
Over Pesach in Boston, in an upper-scale supermarket there were kugels and other Passover-like products sold as Kosher for Passover when the rabbi has been a rabbi of a conservative synagogue for the past 45 years. He is now rabbi emeritus of this same synagogue. He has no mashgiach in any of his operations. The owner of the supposedly Kosher for Paaaover bakery is NOT religious and his place operates on Shabbos as well. It is the rabbi and a nephew as the rabbi’s children want nothing to do with their father’s farce of a hashgacha.
Moshe: The Slanerous tirades are becoming a bit much. I encourage the moderator to delete your missive (and this one as well.)
My statements are not to be misconstrued as slander. Let The Consumer Beware! Caveat Emptor!
Products must only be certified by none other than “orthodox” rabbis with reliable mashgeecheem. The acceptability of pork and beef gelatin is passe’ as we are a people that have become more halachically aware. A rabbi who accepts ingredients listed above, was involved and is still involed in giving supervision to a bakery that provided Kosher for Passover food items that were sold in the greater Boston area. There is no where in halacha as a ‘grandfather’s act’ where it comes to having Jewish-owned bakeries open on Shabbat with any Vaad’s approval. Again, I will state that the American consumer is not accustomed to checking vegetables as carefully as they should. This is a statement that Rabbi Vie of Yerushalayim made after a return visit to the states and found packaged vegetables under supervision that were infested. These agencies took heed and pulled their supervisions off the vegetables. Yes, flour in stores has to be sifted as there are bugs in many bags. There are a lot of problems that exist in vegetarian restaurants. The vegetables alone presetn major problems, then there the oils, flavorings, spices and other contents.
Moshe: It is for each of us to make our decisions, not for you to insist that your opinions, or even the opinions of your rebbe’s, are the ONLY decision. We’ve seen what you have to say. It’s enough now.
Products must only be certified by none other than “orthodox” rabbis with reliable mashgeecheem.
How often does a mashgiach need to be present at a Dunkin Donuts or a bakery? At the Dunkin Donuts in my town which is under what is considered to be a “reliable” supervision, I’ve never seen a mashgiach present.
The acceptability of pork and beef gelatin is passe’ as we are a people that have become more halachically aware.
See Rav Ovadia Yosef Shu”t Yabia Omer vol. 8 - is he orthodox enough for you? He allows both pork and beef gelatin and carmine as well. Seriously though, is gelatin the litmus standard by which a hashgacha is judged these days?
A rabbi who accepts ingredients listed above, was involved and is still involed in giving supervision to a bakery that provided Kosher for Passover food items that were sold in the greater Boston area.
Was there gelatin in the baked goods? I rather doubt it. There used to be many orthodox Rabbis in America who allowed Gelatin. Why should someone who permits it be disqualified as a hashgacha for a bakery which probably would never even use the gelatin.
There is no where in halacha as a ‘grandfather’s act’ where it comes to having Jewish-owned bakeries open on Shabbat with any Vaad’s approval.
Even if they arrange to sell the business every shabbat to a non-jew or have a non-jewish partner? I think not.
Again, I will state that the American consumer is not accustomed to checking vegetables as carefully as they should. This is a statement that Rabbi Vie of Yerushalayim made after a return visit to the states and found packaged vegetables under supervision that were infested. These agencies took heed and pulled their supervisions off the vegetables.
I’ve never heard of this Rabbi - can you give his affiliation. Why is a Rabbi from Jerusalem coming to America to check vegetables? I suppose that is the bagged romaine lettuce you are referring to. I’ll grant you that as I found bugs in Romaine I was checking on Pesach.
Yes, flour in stores has to be sifted as there are bugs in many bags.
The generally accepted practice in America is not to check flour since it is uncommon to find bugs here. Even what you would call the “reliable” hashgachot will tell you that. In Israel the accepted practice is that it is necessary to sift flour.
There are a lot of problems that exist in vegetarian restaurants. The vegetables alone presetn major problems, then there the oils, flavorings, spices and other contents.
Not to mention bishul akum.
BTW - you have some valid points that you are trying to make, but the personal attacks on Rabbis who give hechsherim that don’t follow your standards are unwarranted. Can you not accept that they are giving a level of supervision that their community finds acceptable. No one forces you to shop at those shops.
The Slander continues by Moshe Horwitz. Branding a whole group of persons without factual support has led to discrimination against Jews in the past: we must take care not to slip into that abyss. And returning to the point of this thread, it was a self decribed, “Orthodox” rabbi that provided “certification” to this fast food shop. Are we to assume that all “Orthodox” rabbis, or all rabbis that studied a his “Yeshiva” are not worthy? Of course not. Yet you seem perfectly comfortable to make sweeping generalizations which are patently wrong. This does not add to the level of discorse sought on this blog and distracts from its worthy purpose. I again request that the moderator delete your posts (and this unfortunately necessary reply thereto).
I’m going to leave the comments, because I think the ensuing discussion has been instructional. Just to be clear, the Kosher Blog does not condone painting an entire denomination’s kosher supervision with a wide brush. From now on, any denominational generalizations will be stricken from the comments. Part and parcel, the Kosher Blog insists that individuals consult a reputable community rabbi for advice on which hekshers to accept — that’s how the system works.
Since that’s the only way to know what’s kosher or not, you may wonder why the Blog delves into these subjects at all. Well, like it or not, many casual consumers look to the Internet for this kind of information, and I’d rather someone get spooked and err on the side of caution. Let ‘em read what the hoi poloi think about Heksher X, get scared about potentially eating treyf, and eventually (and most importantly) consult their rabbi on the subject. If your rabbi says something’s okay, it doesn’t matter what anyone else, even Mr. Horowitz, thinks.
I know of a handful of vegetarian restaurants run by Hindus and Buddhists who are just as careful about not eating bugs and using meat products as Orthodox Jews. In fact, in Austin, TX, there is an Indian restaurant that carries a hecksher from an Orthodox rabbi and was open on Saturday. It’s run by Indian people who wanted a pure vegetarian restaurant and it *happens* to be kosher.
Michael Rogovin wrote: The same Rabbi certifies Amy’s Organic Foods (canned and frozen) that are found in many upscale groceries. They chose the firm because it fits with their family-run business (which is in California, not Staten Island). I have been advised not to rely on this kashrut
I dunno, I am all for this certification group. What’s the reason this rabbinical group isn’t ‘good enough’ or supposed to be ignored. As one who loves Amy’s products in cooking, it does intrest me.
Elise Jacobs wrote: If anyone wants to open a meat restaurant in Seattle, by the way, the market is wide open…
Wait until my chef schooling is open… That’s my dream, to open a nice family kosher meat resturant in Seattle. ^^ That way i can cook salmon, brisket, good steaks, pasta with a nice pesto or a delicious marinara… I’d happily do dairy, but then I’d have to pretty much have to have three kitchens (One meat, one dairy, and one vegitarian), and that’d get expensive. I miss the rainy Seattle, and S. Diego’s sun depresses me. But, the school I attend is here, and I’ll walk away a chef AND with a Bachelor’s! ^^
not one single article addressed
that the donuts may be DAIRY!!!!!
You might find some answers here for your questions.
Try this link:
http://oukosher.org/index.php/articles/single/5042/
there are many who are sensetif to dairy product like me, i wounder you have any non dairy donuts or you ever thought to make one .you will be supprise how people wwllcoming such idea and love it. thank you if you let me what you think about my idea thank you very much sincerly jacob tell: 908-282-1360
Hazdan sure sounds like a liberal Rabbi, can’t even discern what kosher is. I wonder what certificate he’ll grant this new Kosher Brandy thats now being marketed in Israel
Two brief points:
1) Rabbi Dov Hazden must have recognized the controversy he would stir in the religious community by granting his hashgacha to a restaurant that serves pork. (see above) That in itself should have been enough to deter him.
2) It’s important to remember that kashurus is about proper service of G-d. And as such it is better to try to avoid areas which MIGHT be questionable.
“it is better to try to avoid areas which MIGHT be questionable.”
Theoretically, this makes some sense. But only to a point. It is much easier to say “no” than “yes.” Over time this leads to a problem whereby behavior gets more and more circumscribed and observance harder and harder. Two very negative consequences are
1) Loss of Klal Yisorel - the fault is not all on the liberal or reform end.
2) Violation of the Torah’s prescription not to deviate from the law neither to the left nor to the right.