“Kosher” Dunkin Donuts stores serving pork get outed
While the controversy over Ner Tamid’s certification of Dunkin Donuts locations is well known to the kosher community, it seems to have finally spilled over into the secular press. New York Magazine reports:
When is a restaurant that serves bacon considered kosher? To most Orthodox rabbis, the answer is easy: never. But Staten Island rabbi Dov Hazdan has been granting his own kosher certification to city Dunkin’ Donuts franchises that have served bacon, ham, and sausage, the trayf trifecta. “The meats all come prepackaged,” says Hazdan. “The employees have to wear gloves. I do not condone mixing kosher with nonkosher.” In Manhattan, Hazdan has also given his ner tamid K stamp to Pongal Vegetarian, an Indian restaurant that operates during the Jewish Sabbath, another no-no among the pork police. Hazdan was recently fired as the kosher supervisor at a Dunkin’ franchise on 34th Street after it received complaints from the Yeshiva University community about the rabbi and the pork. Spokesmen for the four top kosher-certifying agencies said they would never approve a restaurant that served nonkosher meats or operated on the Sabbath. “Who knows what goes on behind the counter?” says one Staten Island rabbi of Hazdan-approved shops. Hazdan insists his methods are 100 percent kosher. “I know a lot of people with beards who go into my stores,” he says.
I guess it makes sense that he verifies his authenticity by noting that the bacon is delivered to the store by a band of bearded santa clauses, and therefore everything is kosher.
In Manhattan, Hazdan has also given his ner tamid K stamp to Pongal Vegetarian, an Indian restaurant that operates during the Jewish Sabbath, another no-no among the pork police.
Maybe the “pork police” don’t like it, but halakhic Jews have less reason for concern. Only Jews are required to keep Shabbos. There are plenty of Gentile-owned kosher restaurants in my area that are open on Saturday, and the community accepts them.
There are plenty of Gentile-owned kosher restaurants in my area the are open on Saturday and the community accepts them.
What happens if the pilot light in the oven goes out on Shabbat? Does a non-Jew turn it back on, thus making the food bishul akum? Or do they close for the rest of the day?
I’m curious as to what agency or Rabbi certifies them.
I’ve heard of bakeries owned and run by non-Jews being open on Saturday, but I’ve never heard of a restaurant being open on Shabbat and certified by someone that was widely accepted.
Firstly, why would there be a pilot light? Who wants those anymore other than observant Jews?
Secondly, why is an observant Jew eating in a restaurant on Shabbos?
Lawrence,
Please give me an example of restaurant open on Shabbos that is under Orthodox superivision and is a level of supervision that is generally accepted.
I’m not saying that it is impossible, just that I have never heard of it.
“Generally accepted” is always an unstable term.
Café Viva, a vegetarian Italian eatery on Manhattan’s Upper West Side, is accepted by the local modern orthodox community. So are Caravan of Dreams, a vegan restaurant in the West Village, and the string of kosher, vegetarian Indian restaurants in the upper East 20s.
When you say that Cafe Viva is accepted by the MO community, do meant that people chose to eat there or that their Rabbis actually told them that it was OK.
Caravan of Dreams has non-Jews checking vegetable for bugs. To the best of my knowledge, there is no basis in halachah for relying on a non-Jew to check for bugs.
A number of Carvel restaurants which are open on Shabbos were undar Kaf-K supervision. This was the case until recently for the Carvel on Avenue M in Brooklyn.
A number of Carvel restaurants which are open on Shabbos are under Kaf-K supervision. This was the case until recently for the Carvel on Avenue M in Brooklyn.
The same Rabbi certifies Amy’s Organic Foods (canned and frozen) that are found in many upscale groceries. They chose the firm because it fits with their family-run business (which is in California, not Staten Island). I have been advised not to rely on this kashrut.
As for being open on Saturday, being open on Saturday in and of itself is not a problem. Dunkin Donuts that are under reliable hashgacha (unlike this one) such as in Highland Park, NJ, Teaneck, NJ, Woodmere, NY, etc are all open on Shabbat. The only issue is that Jews cannot eat food there until enough time after Shabbat has passed for the restaurant to have prepared the food after Shabbat (whether it did so or not). Greener Pastures was a widely accepted restaurant under a reliable Mashgiach (who also now certifes an Indian restaurant in NY with the same issue. GP had other issues, since it was Jewish owned and ’sold’ its business each week. Non-Jewish-owned manufacturing plants are open and prepare all kinds of kosher food on Shabbat under supervision. I don’t see the difference between a plant kitchen and a restaurant kitchen when it comes to whether the food served on a weekday is kosher or not.
As noted above, the Vaad in Highland Park, NJ (of which R. Luban of OU is a member.) certifies at least two establishments ( Dunkin Donuts and Dairy Deluxe) that are owned by people who are of other faiths and are open on Shabbat.
If an OU rabbi finds this acceptable, then clearly the Open on Shabbat issue is a red herring. I would expect that the pig products are over the clear red line though.
In the Pacific Northwest, Bamboo Garden in Seattle, Pabla Indian Cuisine in Renton, Namasthe in Redmond, Teapot Vegetarian in Redmond, and Krispy Kreme in Seattle are all open on Shabbat and have certification from the Vaad of Seattle (www.seattlevaad.org)
Note that none of them serve meat and that the dairy ones are cholov stam.
If anyone wants to open a meat restaurant in Seattle, by the way, the market is wide open…
Or if anyone wants to open a vegetarian Indian restaurant in Boston :)
To the best of my knowledge, there is no basis in halachah for relying on a non-Jew to check for bugs.
There is no basis in halachah for anything having to do with checking for bugs. Insects in vegetables were not considered an issue until recently because they were thought to be spontaneously generated. All the rules about who can be “trusted” are based on other areas of halachah. There is plenty of room for disagreement.
That’s despicable–who would do such a thing? Sigh.
Is it not true that there are still bakeries owned by Jews operating on Shabbos under Boston Vaad supervision?
Only up until lately no one really checked their vegetables very carefully for bug infestation. I don’t believe that those families that are attempting to check for bugs really know what to look for as they are checking. Due to seasonal changes in Israel, two manufacturers of frozen vegetables are no longer certified as kosher due to the increase of bug infestation.
There are a few Dunkin Donut products due to formulation that are not kosher. Rabbi Hazdan also gives(??) supervision to a flour mill too far away for him to check regularly. In the U.S. people are not accustomed to sifting their flour and I personally have opened bags of flour right after Pesach off the store shelves and have found a few to be infested.
Indian food utilizes all kinds of spices. Next time you use black pepper check carefully for clumps and webs as they are signs of infestation. Amongst some of the things that one should be aware of in Indian cooking is the oil and clarified butters that are used. If there is no on-premises mashgiach in these restaurants; what is there to prevent the waiters or owners to bring in their own food from home and warm it up for their families in the same kosher pans /ovens?
How many of you have now seen that there are a lot of pickles and vegetables that are imported from Middle Eastern countries, they utilize wine vinegar but it is just listed as vinegar. Some have even been found with hashgachot on them and there is a problem with the products. Artichokes – bugs galore and there are other culprits as well.
Over Pesach in Boston, in an upper-scale supermarket there were kugels and other Passover-like products sold as Kosher for Passover when the rabbi has been a rabbi of a conservative synagogue for the past 45 years. He is now rabbi emeritus of this same synagogue. He has no mashgiach in any of his operations. The owner of the supposedly Kosher for Paaaover bakery is NOT religious and his place operates on Shabbos as well. It is the rabbi and a nephew as the rabbi’s children want nothing to do with their father’s farce of a hashgacha.
Moshe: The Slanerous tirades are becoming a bit much. I encourage the moderator to delete your missive (and this one as well.)
My statements are not to be misconstrued as slander. Let The Consumer Beware! Caveat Emptor!
Products must only be certified by none other than “orthodox” rabbis with reliable mashgeecheem. The acceptability of pork and beef gelatin is passe’ as we are a people that have become more halachically aware. A rabbi who accepts ingredients listed above, was involved and is still involed in giving supervision to a bakery that provided Kosher for Passover food items that were sold in the greater Boston area. There is no where in halacha as a ‘grandfather’s act’ where it comes to having Jewish-owned bakeries open on Shabbat with any Vaad’s approval. Again, I will state that the American consumer is not accustomed to checking vegetables as carefully as they should. This is a statement that Rabbi Vie of Yerushalayim made after a return visit to the states and found packaged vegetables under supervision that were infested. These agencies took heed and pulled their supervisions off the vegetables. Yes, flour in stores has to be sifted as there are bugs in many bags. There are a lot of problems that exist in vegetarian restaurants. The vegetables alone presetn major problems, then there the oils, flavorings, spices and other contents.
Moshe: It is for each of us to make our decisions, not for you to insist that your opinions, or even the opinions of your rebbe’s, are the ONLY decision. We’ve seen what you have to say. It’s enough now.
Products must only be certified by none other than “orthodox” rabbis with reliable mashgeecheem.
How often does a mashgiach need to be present at a Dunkin Donuts or a bakery? At the Dunkin Donuts in my town which is under what is considered to be a “reliable” supervision, I’ve never seen a mashgiach present.
The acceptability of pork and beef gelatin is passe’ as we are a people that have become more halachically aware.
See Rav Ovadia Yosef Shu”t Yabia Omer vol. 8 – is he orthodox enough for you? He allows both pork and beef gelatin and carmine as well. Seriously though, is gelatin the litmus standard by which a hashgacha is judged these days?
A rabbi who accepts ingredients listed above, was involved and is still involed in giving supervision to a bakery that provided Kosher for Passover food items that were sold in the greater Boston area.
Was there gelatin in the baked goods? I rather doubt it. There used to be many orthodox Rabbis in America who allowed Gelatin. Why should someone who permits it be disqualified as a hashgacha for a bakery which probably would never even use the gelatin.
There is no where in halacha as a ‘grandfather’s act’ where it comes to having Jewish-owned bakeries open on Shabbat with any Vaad’s approval.
Even if they arrange to sell the business every shabbat to a non-jew or have a non-jewish partner? I think not.
Again, I will state that the American consumer is not accustomed to checking vegetables as carefully as they should. This is a statement that Rabbi Vie of Yerushalayim made after a return visit to the states and found packaged vegetables under supervision that were infested. These agencies took heed and pulled their supervisions off the vegetables.
I’ve never heard of this Rabbi – can you give his affiliation. Why is a Rabbi from Jerusalem coming to America to check vegetables? I suppose that is the bagged romaine lettuce you are referring to. I’ll grant you that as I found bugs in Romaine I was checking on Pesach.
Yes, flour in stores has to be sifted as there are bugs in many bags.
The generally accepted practice in America is not to check flour since it is uncommon to find bugs here. Even what you would call the “reliable” hashgachot will tell you that. In Israel the accepted practice is that it is necessary to sift flour.
There are a lot of problems that exist in vegetarian restaurants. The vegetables alone presetn major problems, then there the oils, flavorings, spices and other contents.
Not to mention bishul akum.
BTW – you have some valid points that you are trying to make, but the personal attacks on Rabbis who give hechsherim that don’t follow your standards are unwarranted. Can you not accept that they are giving a level of supervision that their community finds acceptable. No one forces you to shop at those shops.
The Slander continues by Moshe Horwitz. Branding a whole group of persons without factual support has led to discrimination against Jews in the past: we must take care not to slip into that abyss. And returning to the point of this thread, it was a self decribed, “Orthodox” rabbi that provided “certification” to this fast food shop. Are we to assume that all “Orthodox” rabbis, or all rabbis that studied a his “Yeshiva” are not worthy? Of course not. Yet you seem perfectly comfortable to make sweeping generalizations which are patently wrong. This does not add to the level of discorse sought on this blog and distracts from its worthy purpose. I again request that the moderator delete your posts (and this unfortunately necessary reply thereto).
I’m going to leave the comments, because I think the ensuing discussion has been instructional. Just to be clear, the Kosher Blog does not condone painting an entire denomination’s kosher supervision with a wide brush. From now on, any denominational generalizations will be stricken from the comments. Part and parcel, the Kosher Blog insists that individuals consult a reputable community rabbi for advice on which hekshers to accept — that’s how the system works.
Since that’s the only way to know what’s kosher or not, you may wonder why the Blog delves into these subjects at all. Well, like it or not, many casual consumers look to the Internet for this kind of information, and I’d rather someone get spooked and err on the side of caution. Let ‘em read what the hoi poloi think about Heksher X, get scared about potentially eating treyf, and eventually (and most importantly) consult their rabbi on the subject. If your rabbi says something’s okay, it doesn’t matter what anyone else, even Mr. Horowitz, thinks.
I know of a handful of vegetarian restaurants run by Hindus and Buddhists who are just as careful about not eating bugs and using meat products as Orthodox Jews. In fact, in Austin, TX, there is an Indian restaurant that carries a hecksher from an Orthodox rabbi and was open on Saturday. It’s run by Indian people who wanted a pure vegetarian restaurant and it *happens* to be kosher.
Michael Rogovin wrote: The same Rabbi certifies Amy’s Organic Foods (canned and frozen) that are found in many upscale groceries. They chose the firm because it fits with their family-run business (which is in California, not Staten Island). I have been advised not to rely on this kashrut
I dunno, I am all for this certification group. What’s the reason this rabbinical group isn’t ‘good enough’ or supposed to be ignored. As one who loves Amy’s products in cooking, it does intrest me.
Elise Jacobs wrote: If anyone wants to open a meat restaurant in Seattle, by the way, the market is wide open…
Wait until my chef schooling is open… That’s my dream, to open a nice family kosher meat resturant in Seattle. ^^ That way i can cook salmon, brisket, good steaks, pasta with a nice pesto or a delicious marinara… I’d happily do dairy, but then I’d have to pretty much have to have three kitchens (One meat, one dairy, and one vegitarian), and that’d get expensive. I miss the rainy Seattle, and S. Diego’s sun depresses me. But, the school I attend is here, and I’ll walk away a chef AND with a Bachelor’s! ^^
not one single article addressed
that the donuts may be DAIRY!!!!!
You might find some answers here for your questions.
Try this link:
http://oukosher.org/index.php/articles/single/5042/
there are many who are sensetif to dairy product like me, i wounder you have any non dairy donuts or you ever thought to make one .you will be supprise how people wwllcoming such idea and love it. thank you if you let me what you think about my idea thank you very much sincerly jacob tell: 908-282-1360
Hazdan sure sounds like a liberal Rabbi, can’t even discern what kosher is. I wonder what certificate he’ll grant this new Kosher Brandy thats now being marketed in Israel
Two brief points:
1) Rabbi Dov Hazden must have recognized the controversy he would stir in the religious community by granting his hashgacha to a restaurant that serves pork. (see above) That in itself should have been enough to deter him.
2) It’s important to remember that kashurus is about proper service of G-d. And as such it is better to try to avoid areas which MIGHT be questionable.
“it is better to try to avoid areas which MIGHT be questionable.”
Theoretically, this makes some sense. But only to a point. It is much easier to say “no” than “yes.” Over time this leads to a problem whereby behavior gets more and more circumscribed and observance harder and harder. Two very negative consequences are
1) Loss of Klal Yisorel – the fault is not all on the liberal or reform end.
2) Violation of the Torah’s prescription not to deviate from the law neither to the left nor to the right.
I very much enjoy eating Amy’s frozen kosher meals. They are portion-controlled, healthy, vegetarian, and delicious.
I think that Avraham Avinu and Moshe Rabbeinu would prefer an Amy’s meal to matza and manna.
Amy’s looks very attractive and it sounds nice, but wherever they started, they are now a large operation producing canned and frozen foods with a variety of ingredients, including vegetables requiring checking, cheese that needs to be gvinat yisrael, and many other issues that come with a factory scale food production. They may in fact be kosher, but the fact that a California operation turned to a little known Staten Island based hechsher ought to be suspect in itself. There are many small hechshers that would fit Amy’s stated (to me in writing) criteria that are perfectly acceptable and why they insist on going with this one gives me great pause. I have not been to the fancy food show in several years so I have not had another opportunity to appeal to them to reconsider, so I just say no. As always, ask your halachic advisor.
If G-d truly intended for us to keep Kosher, he wouldn’t have created the bacon cheeseburger.
Org Man,
That might be a staple of Jewish stand-up routines — and you might only be joking — but I thought I’d offer a brief thought in response.
You’ve described something that’s exactly the opposite of how Jews approach the natural world: we seek to take the commonplace and make it holy, not reduce ourselves to the lowest common denominator.
Chaos, unrest, dispute, entropy, harm, neglect… these are all things naturally possible in a God-created universe. The goal of Yiddishkeit is to build a civilization that transcends all those “natural” qualities in favor of holy qualities: love, order, respect, tolerance, care.
And, yes, even kashrut plays a part. So empower yourself to abstain from a God-created bacon cheeseburger!
So what you’re basically saying is that eating a bacon cheeseburger is synonymous to chaos, unrest, dispute, entropy, harm, neglect… and it will also reduce you to the lowest common denominator? Come on dude!
In early biblical times, yes it made sense not to eat pork. Now a days, pigs are raised on kosher corn meal. How does that make them unholy. They are still god’s creature and if it is okay to eat cow, chicken, lamb, etc. then I say, lets us enjoy what god gave us.
let stop pretending that it is more than what it is.
You’re absolutely right — they are all G-d’s creatures, and it’s up to G-d to tell us how we should use them.
Kashrut does not exist outside the halachic system. G-d commanded us not to murder, not to steal, not to envy, just as much as he commanded us not to eat pork.
Keeping kosher or not is entirely your choice, and I make no judgments on how you choose. But this is a Kosher Blog, and one of the unspoken recommendations for participation is not to disparage kashrut or those who adhere to it.
Thanks!
Sorry Jonathan,
I meant no disrespect nor was I trying to dsparage kashrut. It was just to voice an opinion. I will not comment any further,except to say that I doubt G-d commanded us not to eat pork. Remember one thing, humans wrote these laws based on what they felt was G-d’s will. As we all know through history is that humans are not perfect and will make mistakes.
The 10 commandments makes no reference to pork not being kosher.
Thank you for responding to my blogs and again no disrespect to you or anyone who adheres to the kashrut.
Well, until G-d comes back with a better explination than basically: “Because I said so!” I’ll keep eating my Philly Cheesesteaks.
kosher laws (for meat) originate in the text in the torah to not eat animals who do not chew their cud and do not have split hoofs.
from chabad.org
“Although a pig is no more unkosher than a cheeseburger or a lobster, the pig has something to it that is anathema to what Judaism stands for: it is a fraud.
There are two signs that identify a kosher species of animal. 1) It has split hooves, and 2) it chews its cud (i.e. it regurgitates its food and chews it over a second time.) The first sign is easy to spot – just look at the hooves. But the second is not so apparent. You have to study the animal’s digestive system to know if it chews its cud. A cow is an example of an animal that fulfils both requirements, and is thus kosher. A horse is not kosher because it fulfils neither. There is only one animal in existence that seems kosher because it has split hooves, but is really not kosher because it doesn’t chew its cud — the pig.
And that’s why we denigrate the pig. Every other non-kosher animal is up front about it. The horse says “I don’t have split hooves, so I’m just not kosher.” But the pig presents a kosher facade. “Look, I have split hooves, just like a kosher animal should!” But what lies hidden behind that kosher veneer is a non-kosher inside: it doesn’t chew its cud. For Judaism, nothing could be worse than making a holy facade when your inside is rotten.”
as for kosher laws not being part of the 10 commandments
from belief.net
The Bible as a whole makes no claim for divine authorship. Although many passages are quoted in God’s name, the five books of Moses (Genesis through Deuteronomy) never assert that their entire content is divine. Nonetheless, due to various interpretations and doctrines, the belief has grown up in Judaism that the whole Torah (and to a certain extent, the subsequent biblical books and even the rabbinic tradition) is divine.
http://www.aish.com
So, why do Jews keep kosher?
God wants us to use our intellect to understand the mitzvot to the best of our ability. The two reasons why Jews for thousands of years have kept kosher is because Jews believe: 1) There is a God who created the world, sustains and supervises it. 2) God entered into a covenant with the Jewish people, and gave the Torah, obligating Jews to uphold and fulfill its commandments. The kosher laws are a part of that covenant.
Sure, there are many benefits of keeping kosher (even some health ones!). However, these are “benefits” and not “reasons.” God wants us to use our intellect to understand the mitzvot to the best of our ability.
Perhaps the following understandings of keeping kosher will be food for thought:
1) Hygienic: There are many laws that promote health. Judaism forbids eating animals that died without proper slaughter and the draining of the blood (which is a medium for the growth of bacteria). Judaism also forbids eating animals that have abscesses in their lungs or other health problems.
Shellfish, mollusks, lobsters (and yes, stone crabs) which have spread typhoid and are a source for urticara (a neurotic skin affliction) are not on the diet. Milk and meat digest at an unequal rate and are difficult for the body; they are forbidden to be eaten together.
Birds of prey are not kosher — tension and hormones produced might make the meat unhealthy.
2) Moral Lessons: We are taught to be sensitive to others’ feelings — even to the feelings of animals. A mother and her young are forbidden to be slaughtered on the same day, and of course “don’t boil a kid (goat) in its mother’s milk.”
The Torah prohibits cruelty to animals. We must not remove the limb of an animal while it is still alive (a common practice, prior to refrigeration). When we slaughter an animal, it must be done with the least possible pain; there is a special knife that is so sharp that even the slightest nick in the blade renders it impermissible. This prevents pain to the animal.
And we are reminded not to be vicious, by the prohibition to eat vicious birds of prey.
3) National Reasons — The Jewish people have a mission of Tikkun Olam, repairing the world. A special diet reminds us of our mission and keeps us together as a people to fulfill it. (Intermarriage is kind of hard when you have to take your non-Jewish date to a kosher restaurant, or if you go to a prospective mother-in-law’s home and you won’t eat her food…)
Keeping kosher is also a reminder of gratitude to the Almighty for taking the Jewish people out of Egypt, and a symbol of the holy covenant. (see Leviticus 11:45-47)
4)Mystical — The Torah calls the Jews a “holy people” and prescribes a holy diet (see Deut. 14:2-4). You are what you eat. Kosher is God’s diet for spirituality. Jewish mysticism teaches that non-kosher food blocks the spiritual potential of the soul.
Kosher animals properly slaughtered and prepared have more “sparks of holiness” (according to the Kabbalah) which are incorporated in our being.
5)Discipline — If a person can be disciplined in what and when he eats, it follows that he can be disciplined in other areas of life as well. Kashrut requires that one must wait after eating meat before eating milk products and we may not eat certain animals or combinations of foods. (Even when you’re hungry!) All of this instills self-discipline.
If you disagree with these understandings and benefits, that’s okay, too. Because the real reason we eat kosher is that God commanded us to do so in the Torah, and the Jewish people are bound to God in a covenant to keep the commandments of that Torah.
Which begs another question: How do we know there is a God, and how do we know that God gave us the Torah? For some answers, read “Permission to Believe” and “Permission to Receive,” two books by Lawrence Keleman
Of course, the Almighty does not want us to become neurotic. If one wants to upgrade his observance of Torah, it should be done in intelligent, calculated steps. Just as a parent loves the first steps of a toddler, the Almighty treasures our steps toward fulfilling His Torah. Do what you can, with thoughts of doing even more.
This is the sane approach to coming closer to the Almighty, fulfilling His mitzvot, and gaining benefits, too.
When ‘dayanim’, ‘rabbis’ and false ‘mekubalim’ use the Torah for their own power and commercial profit, this behaviour is abhorrent.
No other ‘rabbi’ will ever act against another ‘rabbi’ – even when he knows his colleague is clearly desecrating the Torah. Each rabbi is only worried about losing his own position.
Therefore, the ‘rabbi’, ‘dayyan’ or false ‘mekubal’ (‘kabbalist’) will never effect justice. And he will never truly stand for the Torah or the Honour of Hashem. His pocket will always prevail.
The Torah must never be used for commercial gain and profit. Amm israel can only be lead by those who have the necessary love and respect of Hashem and the Torah.
Any man who chooses to be a ‘rabbi’ (‘true teacher’ of Torah) or a ‘dayan’ (‘judge’), or a ‘mekubal’ (‘kabbalist’) should be doing so Voluntarily. Out of his pure love for Hashem and the Torah. And his Ahavat Yisrael.
If he refuses to do community work voluntarily, and wants and accepts payment for everything he does, such a man should not be heading a community. He should get a job and earn a living. He can collect milk bottles or clean the windows. That is what is called ‘earning a living’.
Torah is learned, studied and taught: out of Love. Voluntarily. But the ‘rabbis’ have turned the Torah into their ‘Profession’, from which they earn money.
We are commanded in the Shema to:
‘LOVE Hashem, your G-d, WITH ALL YOUR HEART, and with all your soul and with all your might.’
‘VE’AHAVTA et Hashem Elokecha BECHOL LEVAVECHA uvechol nafshecha uvechol meodecha.’ (Devarim, Vaethanan, 6:4-5)
Is the ordinary man or woman PAID to pray to Hashem, or to say some words of Torah? No. Has veshalom! But the rabbis are. These men can give ‘lovely’ shiurim that they have rehearsed. But they would not give a shiur without being paid for it.
The true hachamim and rabbis of old, all actually worked at proper jobs and professions.
Wake up! Even a little child could have worked this out. These salaried men can never truly stand for the Torah, because in a case of conflict between a correct course of action according to the Torah, and the rabbi or rav’s pocket – his pocket and position will always prevail.
Pirkei Avot: (2:2)
“Raban Gamliel beno shel Rabi Yehuda HaNassi omer: yafeh talmud Torah im derech eretz, sheyegiat shenaihem mashkachat avon. Vechol Torah she’ein imah melacha sofa betailah ve’goreret avon. Vechol haoskim im hatzibbur yiheyu imahem leShem Shamayim……”
“Rabban Gamliel, the son of Rabi Yehuda HaNassi, said: It is good to combine Torah study with a worldly occupation, for working at them both drives sin from the mind. All Torah without an occupation will in the end fail and lead to sin. And let all who work for the community do so for the sake of Heaven………”
So Moses is atop Mount Sinai, and hears the voice of G-d:
“Moses, tell them that you shall not boil a calf in its mother’s milk”
and Moses replies: “Ok, you want us to not eat dairy and meat products together, and to wait a bit between eating one and then the other.”
And again, G-d’s voice booms:
“You shall not boil a calf in its mothers milk”
And again, Moses replies, “Got it. Separate dishes and utensils for the meat and the dairy, just in case.”
A third time, G-d’s voice intones:
“You shall not boil a calf in its mothers milk”
This time Moses is sure he has it: “Right. Poutlry is meat, even though birds don’t make milk.”
And again, G-D speaks: “Forget it Moses. Do whatever you want.”
Any replies should be made knowing that I work at a hospital with a kosher cafeteria that won’t serve meat and fish on the same plate – despite being a teritary care hospital with great dermatologists, surgeons, etc in the building. If I can’t mix meat and fish in this environment, clearly, we’re just keeping minhag, not halacha…
Best,
matt
Name is Matthew
Denigrates Rabbinic traditions
Believes the Old Testament is subject to personal interpretation.
Hmm…. i know i’ve heard of that religion somewhere…
Denigrates Rabbinic traditions? Each spring, I come to the kosherblog just for the kinyot / quinoa converstaion…
Say, were talking about Dunkin Donuts at one point?
Denigrates Rabbinic traditions? Each spring, I come to the kosherblog just for the kinyot / quinoa converstaion…
Say, were we talking about Dunkin Donuts at one point?
please note – my above comment about minhag was purely limited to the mixing of fish and meat. (Which Michael Symon actually did on the kosher for passover episode of “Dinner Impossible” on Food Network, but that’s another thread altogether…”)