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	<title>Comments on: Our traditional deep-fried Chanukah turkey</title>
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	<link>http://www.kosherblog.net/2006/01/20/our-traditional-deep-fried-chanukah-turkey/</link>
	<description>Finding the finer side of everyday kosher living</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 15:57:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Jonathan</title>
		<link>http://www.kosherblog.net/2006/01/20/our-traditional-deep-fried-chanukah-turkey/#comment-2753</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Feb 2006 02:20:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kosherblog.net/2006/01/20/our-traditional-deep-fried-chanukah-turkey/#comment-2753</guid>
		<description>Here's what Harold McGee has to say about brining meat in &lt;i&gt;On Food and Cooking&lt;/i&gt;:

The tendency of modern meats to dry out led cooks to rediscover light brining, a traditional method in Scandinavia and elsewhere. The meats, typically poultry or pork, are immersed in a brine containing 3 to 6% salt by weight for anywere from a few hours to two days (depending on thickness) before being cooked as usual. They come out noticeably juicier.

Brining has two initial effects. First, salt disrupts the structure of the muscle filaments. A 3% salt solution (2 tablespoons per quart/30 gm per liter) dissolves parts of the protein structure that supports the contracting filaments, and a 5.5% solution (4 tablespoons per quart/60 gm per liter) partly dissolves the filaments themselves. Second, the interactions of salt and proteins result in a greater water-holding capacity in the muscle cells, which then absorb water from the brine. (The inward movement of salt and water and disruptions of the muscle filaments into the meat also increase its absorption of aromatic molecules from any herbs and spices in the brine.) The meat's weight increases by 10% or more. When cooked, the meat still loses around 20% of its weight in moisture, but this loss is counter-balanced by the brine absorbed, so the moisture loss is effectively cut in half. In addition, the dissolved protein filaments can't coagulate into normally dense aggregates, so the cooked meat seems more tender. Because the brine works its way in from the outside, it has its earliest and strongest effects on the meat region most likely to be overcooked, so even a brief, incomplete soaking can make a difference.

The obvious disadvantage of brining is that it makes both the meat and its drippings quite salty. Some recipes balance the saltiness by including sugar or such ingredients as fruit juice or buttermilk, which provide both sweetness and sourness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s what Harold McGee has to say about brining meat in <i>On Food and Cooking</i>:</p>
<p>The tendency of modern meats to dry out led cooks to rediscover light brining, a traditional method in Scandinavia and elsewhere. The meats, typically poultry or pork, are immersed in a brine containing 3 to 6% salt by weight for anywere from a few hours to two days (depending on thickness) before being cooked as usual. They come out noticeably juicier.</p>
<p>Brining has two initial effects. First, salt disrupts the structure of the muscle filaments. A 3% salt solution (2 tablespoons per quart/30 gm per liter) dissolves parts of the protein structure that supports the contracting filaments, and a 5.5% solution (4 tablespoons per quart/60 gm per liter) partly dissolves the filaments themselves. Second, the interactions of salt and proteins result in a greater water-holding capacity in the muscle cells, which then absorb water from the brine. (The inward movement of salt and water and disruptions of the muscle filaments into the meat also increase its absorption of aromatic molecules from any herbs and spices in the brine.) The meat&#8217;s weight increases by 10% or more. When cooked, the meat still loses around 20% of its weight in moisture, but this loss is counter-balanced by the brine absorbed, so the moisture loss is effectively cut in half. In addition, the dissolved protein filaments can&#8217;t coagulate into normally dense aggregates, so the cooked meat seems more tender. Because the brine works its way in from the outside, it has its earliest and strongest effects on the meat region most likely to be overcooked, so even a brief, incomplete soaking can make a difference.</p>
<p>The obvious disadvantage of brining is that it makes both the meat and its drippings quite salty. Some recipes balance the saltiness by including sugar or such ingredients as fruit juice or buttermilk, which provide both sweetness and sourness.</p>
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		<title>By: shayt</title>
		<link>http://www.kosherblog.net/2006/01/20/our-traditional-deep-fried-chanukah-turkey/#comment-2752</link>
		<dc:creator>shayt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2006 18:15:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kosherblog.net/2006/01/20/our-traditional-deep-fried-chanukah-turkey/#comment-2752</guid>
		<description>Jonathan,

Thanks for calling me out on my error. You are right I had it backwards. I havent had a bio lesson in over 5 years so its my bad.

Water does go from a low salt concentration solution to a higher one. But still a brine causes water soluble flavors to be taken up by the cells of the meat therebye causing them to taste a whole lot better. So even if you brine a kosher turkey, I think that once equilibrium is reached there is the same amount of water moving into the turkey as moving out of the turkey and the liquid coming in brings with it all of the flavors from the brine.

Last Thanksgiving I brined a josher turkey, and it really did make it taste a whole lot better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jonathan,</p>
<p>Thanks for calling me out on my error. You are right I had it backwards. I havent had a bio lesson in over 5 years so its my bad.</p>
<p>Water does go from a low salt concentration solution to a higher one. But still a brine causes water soluble flavors to be taken up by the cells of the meat therebye causing them to taste a whole lot better. So even if you brine a kosher turkey, I think that once equilibrium is reached there is the same amount of water moving into the turkey as moving out of the turkey and the liquid coming in brings with it all of the flavors from the brine.</p>
<p>Last Thanksgiving I brined a josher turkey, and it really did make it taste a whole lot better.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan</title>
		<link>http://www.kosherblog.net/2006/01/20/our-traditional-deep-fried-chanukah-turkey/#comment-2751</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2006 14:53:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kosherblog.net/2006/01/20/our-traditional-deep-fried-chanukah-turkey/#comment-2751</guid>
		<description>Shayt has it close, but not entirely right. I'll have to check in McGee when I get home tonight to get a full explanation for you, but osmosis works the other way -- water will flow through a semi-permeable membrane from an area of low solute (in this case salt) concentration to an area of high solute concentration. You can think of it as diffusion of water, from high concentration of water to low concentration of water. If the salt concentration of the brining solution were higher than the solute concentration in the turkey cells, then water would flow out of the turkey -- we don't want this to happen. But if the salt concentration of the brining solution were a bit lower than the solute concentration of the turkey, then we're in business. I'll check later to get a full explanation, but didn't want people to end up in osmotic disequilibrium :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shayt has it close, but not entirely right. I&#8217;ll have to check in McGee when I get home tonight to get a full explanation for you, but osmosis works the other way &#8212; water will flow through a semi-permeable membrane from an area of low solute (in this case salt) concentration to an area of high solute concentration. You can think of it as diffusion of water, from high concentration of water to low concentration of water. If the salt concentration of the brining solution were higher than the solute concentration in the turkey cells, then water would flow out of the turkey &#8212; we don&#8217;t want this to happen. But if the salt concentration of the brining solution were a bit lower than the solute concentration of the turkey, then we&#8217;re in business. I&#8217;ll check later to get a full explanation, but didn&#8217;t want people to end up in osmotic disequilibrium :)</p>
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		<title>By: shayt</title>
		<link>http://www.kosherblog.net/2006/01/20/our-traditional-deep-fried-chanukah-turkey/#comment-2750</link>
		<dc:creator>shayt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2006 02:47:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kosherblog.net/2006/01/20/our-traditional-deep-fried-chanukah-turkey/#comment-2750</guid>
		<description>If you think about, re-brining the turkey would work. I was a biology major in college (Brandeis '01) so bear with my geeky explanation. Brining a turkey works because the salt concentration in the brine solution is higher in the brining solution then in the turkey meat which causes water to go into the meat because water always goes from areas of high salt concentration to a lower concentration. Once equilibrium between the brine and the cells of the turkey is reached water will move back and forth between the brine and the turkey so the water should bring flavors from the brine into the turkey.

Also, jabbet, a brine is not a marinade.  A brine is a salt water solution while a marinade is usually an acidic liquid which tenderizes the meat. Does the same thing, but works through different methods.

Just what I said it was going to be, a geeky explanation....... Go Alton Brown!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you think about, re-brining the turkey would work. I was a biology major in college (Brandeis &#8216;01) so bear with my geeky explanation. Brining a turkey works because the salt concentration in the brine solution is higher in the brining solution then in the turkey meat which causes water to go into the meat because water always goes from areas of high salt concentration to a lower concentration. Once equilibrium between the brine and the cells of the turkey is reached water will move back and forth between the brine and the turkey so the water should bring flavors from the brine into the turkey.</p>
<p>Also, jabbet, a brine is not a marinade.  A brine is a salt water solution while a marinade is usually an acidic liquid which tenderizes the meat. Does the same thing, but works through different methods.</p>
<p>Just what I said it was going to be, a geeky explanation&#8230;&#8230;. Go Alton Brown!</p>
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		<title>By: DeisCane</title>
		<link>http://www.kosherblog.net/2006/01/20/our-traditional-deep-fried-chanukah-turkey/#comment-2749</link>
		<dc:creator>DeisCane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:23:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kosherblog.net/2006/01/20/our-traditional-deep-fried-chanukah-turkey/#comment-2749</guid>
		<description>I've always heard you should use peanut oil, which adds a very minor nutty flavor, if one at all, rather than the "oily" flavor of corn oil.

Flavor injectors are the way to go, though, regardless.  It's not that hard, and the ingredients are basic...some herbs you like, and some moisture, voila.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve always heard you should use peanut oil, which adds a very minor nutty flavor, if one at all, rather than the &#8220;oily&#8221; flavor of corn oil.</p>
<p>Flavor injectors are the way to go, though, regardless.  It&#8217;s not that hard, and the ingredients are basic&#8230;some herbs you like, and some moisture, voila.</p>
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		<title>By: harry</title>
		<link>http://www.kosherblog.net/2006/01/20/our-traditional-deep-fried-chanukah-turkey/#comment-2748</link>
		<dc:creator>harry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jan 2006 14:38:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kosherblog.net/2006/01/20/our-traditional-deep-fried-chanukah-turkey/#comment-2748</guid>
		<description>I always buy a turkey neck and two wings at the butcher, roast them, throw them in pot with vegetables then make a robust brown turkey stock. Once the stock is cooked and reduced and delicious I strain and inject the stock into the turkey every fifteen minutes as the turkey roasts. This probably isn't an option while frying but it's a sure fire way of getting a flavorful turkey when roasting or bbq'ing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I always buy a turkey neck and two wings at the butcher, roast them, throw them in pot with vegetables then make a robust brown turkey stock. Once the stock is cooked and reduced and delicious I strain and inject the stock into the turkey every fifteen minutes as the turkey roasts. This probably isn&#8217;t an option while frying but it&#8217;s a sure fire way of getting a flavorful turkey when roasting or bbq&#8217;ing.</p>
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		<title>By: jabbett</title>
		<link>http://www.kosherblog.net/2006/01/20/our-traditional-deep-fried-chanukah-turkey/#comment-2747</link>
		<dc:creator>jabbett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jan 2006 02:47:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kosherblog.net/2006/01/20/our-traditional-deep-fried-chanukah-turkey/#comment-2747</guid>
		<description>Kosher turkeys are already soaked and salted, which, in terms of adding &lt;em&gt;moisture&lt;/em&gt;, is equivalent to standard brining.  A "flavor" brine (rather than a salt water brine) sounds promising.  I guess you could just call it a marinade?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kosher turkeys are already soaked and salted, which, in terms of adding <em>moisture</em>, is equivalent to standard brining.  A &#8220;flavor&#8221; brine (rather than a salt water brine) sounds promising.  I guess you could just call it a marinade?</p>
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		<title>By: velorutionary</title>
		<link>http://www.kosherblog.net/2006/01/20/our-traditional-deep-fried-chanukah-turkey/#comment-2746</link>
		<dc:creator>velorutionary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jan 2006 22:17:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kosherblog.net/2006/01/20/our-traditional-deep-fried-chanukah-turkey/#comment-2746</guid>
		<description>In my experience, Kosher turkeys have benefited from brining, and keep in mind that you are also adding other ingredients to the brining solution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my experience, Kosher turkeys have benefited from brining, and keep in mind that you are also adding other ingredients to the brining solution.</p>
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		<title>By: Milhouse</title>
		<link>http://www.kosherblog.net/2006/01/20/our-traditional-deep-fried-chanukah-turkey/#comment-2745</link>
		<dc:creator>Milhouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jan 2006 17:44:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kosherblog.net/2006/01/20/our-traditional-deep-fried-chanukah-turkey/#comment-2745</guid>
		<description>Isn't the turkey already brined by the kashering?  I thought brining was only for treif turkeys.  Would a second brining help, or has the meat already absorbed all it will take?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t the turkey already brined by the kashering?  I thought brining was only for treif turkeys.  Would a second brining help, or has the meat already absorbed all it will take?</p>
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		<title>By: velorutionary</title>
		<link>http://www.kosherblog.net/2006/01/20/our-traditional-deep-fried-chanukah-turkey/#comment-2744</link>
		<dc:creator>velorutionary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jan 2006 14:05:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kosherblog.net/2006/01/20/our-traditional-deep-fried-chanukah-turkey/#comment-2744</guid>
		<description>Brining the turkey beforehand could be the difference. Adding orange juice, oranges/lemons herbs, brown sugar/honey, chicken stock etc. to the brining liquid can help in the flavor department.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brining the turkey beforehand could be the difference. Adding orange juice, oranges/lemons herbs, brown sugar/honey, chicken stock etc. to the brining liquid can help in the flavor department.</p>
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