Kosher Blog

BS”D

Yes, I chgecked with Rabbi Hollander, and he said the same thing. As of now, he would not hesitate to recommend anything under the half-moon-K hechsher with this caveat: Lettuces under half-moon-K is triple washed but not checked. If you hold by triple washed, it’s good- most of the hechshered lettuce out there is triple washed. However, if you hold by the shita that it must be checked, better to buy Bodek brand or GoldenFlow, or check the lettuce yourself. Everything else is ok. I just went out and bought Pace picante sauce and Knudsen buttermilk under the hichsher to show support.

Is Bodek actually checked? I find that incredibley difficult to believe, based on their sheer volume and sale of Bodek frozen brussels sprouts.

BS”D

As I understand it, Bodek checks a representative sample of vegetables for bugs. Based upon that sample, they can abort the packing of the whole lot. This is as opposed to the simple “triple wash” process in lieu of checking. I’m sure they are still “triple washed” afterwards, just to be on the safe side, but each lot is checked. I know a mashgiach. He says that even then, he won’t use brocolli without pureeing it first, just to be on the safe side.

Craig, Thanks for the info. My understanding is that triple-washing isn’t in lieu of checking per se, rather it decreases the likelihood that bugs would be present in the packaging [i.e. to a degree of less than 10% possibility, the commonly accepted number for Miut Sh'eino Motzuy], thus negating the requirement that the vegetables need to be checked.

The process of checking selected samples from a bunch is to establish [a bug-free] Hazaqah on the entire lot, and thus it is [Halakhically] considered that the rest of the vegetables in that lot be checked.

The OU’s policy is to require a Mashgiach to check triple washed products [using the Hazaqah method] before certification, because the infestation levels are variable by lot, so saying that you should wash the produce X number of times, or using Y method could lead to false positives.

What I’m trying to say is that you could always buy a bag of triple washed produce and check a few leaves on your own and be no worse off than purchasing the ones with the sticker. Neither has been actually checked prior to your use, both may contain possible bugs, both are considered checked if someone checks either an entire bag from the lot, or a few leaves from the bag.

The point I made about the Brussels sprouts was not to infer that Bodek is not following Halakhic standards, but that it is proof that their products are checked with the Hazaqah method, as it is impossible to check Brussels sprouts otherwise.

There are those who do not rely on Hazaqah method at all, [I have seen this Shittah mentioned by many Hassidishe Poskim] and require all leafy vegetables to be checked, leaf by leaf. Brussels sprouts would be unacceptable unless prepared [and checked] leaf by leaf.

Craig Winchell, perhaps I misunderstood the following part of your post:

“I know a mashgiach. He says that even then, he won’t use brocolli without pureeing it first, just to be on the safe side.”

How does pureeing the brocolli make it “safe”? It won’t get rid of any bugs (or parts thereof) that are in the brocolli, it would just grind them up beyond any ability to recognize them.

BS”D

If you can’t recognize the parts, it’s not assur. It’s very interesting reasoning. A person might wish to eat a live bug, but a dead bug is detestable, so because it’s not wanted in there it’s capable of being nullified, but a live bug is never capable of being nullified. A pureed bug is certainly dead.

Craig

Craig, the issue isn’t whether the insect is dead or alive per se.

The issue is whether the insect is ‘whole.’

‘Bittul’ (nullification) does not apply to a ‘Biryah’ (entire creature). There is some discussion whether a dead insect is capable of consideration of ‘Biryah’ and many authorities consider it to be possible, even if dead. A pureed bug is most certainly not a ‘Biryah’ anymore and is thus Halakhically irrelevant because the concept of ‘Bittul’ applies.

There is a question of whether it is permissible to puree insect-infested vegetables with the intention of nullification. Generally, it is not permissible to be ‘M’Vateil Issur L’Khathila’ (to actively encourage nullification of forbidden matter).

One approach: If you consider the possibility of infestation to be a mere doubt, and thus by pureeing you aren’t actively ‘nullifying’, rather nullification may or may not have occured as a pleasant byproduct.

Another approach: Considering infestation to be a given. Prepare a food that is commonly pureed, i.e. cream of broccoli soup. Pureeing isn’t done for nullification sake alone, but for its intended usage.

(1) on the bug issue, an article by J David Bleich in the current issue of Tradition gives the details of when bugs become batel. He is discussing NYC water, but much of the principal is the same.

(2) on the half-moon K, I checked with my LOR (I sent the thread above). His sources say that nothing substantive has changed, it is NOT politics, and the hechsher is still not recommended. Each reader should be mindful to (a) check with their own LOR and (b) know that the community as a whole does not (yet?) accept this hechsher (for me, that would mean that even if I would accept it, if my community did not, I would not use these foods in my home). The best thing that rabbis who are competant and trustworthy and are associated with this organization could do is retire the symbol and either create a new one or pass the contracts onto other, accepted hechshers.

FYI, as the staff at the HMK are still working on getting to all the plants and fixing issues, the hechsher should ONLY be relied on on a case by case basis. This means that you should call them and ask, period. For instance, Pace and Paul Newman’s salsas are good as per discussion with them directly. Other products should be inquired of.

An easy fast to all.

One thing I find a bit confusing about Half-Moon K is that they use K-P for “pareve”. I remember reading somewhere (maybe even on this blog?) that P should only mean “passover”. Is that incorrect?

Are other people confirming this? I know that Rav Hollander is a Talmid Chochom and so forth… and I don’t like to go just by the impressions of the otehr Jews in the shtiebel, but doesn’t it take some confirmation from other kashrus experts to change a reputation for lackadaisical supervision (isn’t that a nice euphemism?).

BS”D

I know Rabbi Hollander, and if he says things are up to snuff now, which he does, it works for me. However, the fact that Rabbi Eidlitz included a half moon K product in his column shows ne that the hechsher has arrived, at least locally. Unfortunately, many products I wanted kosher needed to be dropped from the hechsher, so making the half-moon-K reliable has decreased its desirability for me, in a way. I really would have liked some of the questionable products to be reliably certified kosher. In the old days, half moon K products were ubiquitous. Now, except for Pace, they are in in any case difficult to find.

I have had extensive correspondence with Rabbi Eidlitz on the current acceptability of the Half-Moon K. While of course, I in no way speak for R. Eiditz, I share this information to move the issue forward. R. Eidlitz has told me that the majority of Half-Moon products are now acceptable. Those few products that are not yet acceptable are either being brought up to pace or dropped. For now, he said questions should be asked on a product by product basis. I asked R. Eidlitz for his views on over 2 dozen products and he indicated that each product was acceptable. To the extent that H.M.K. is now enforcing an acceptable standard, I would imagine that they would be willing to provide this information directly. Given these facts, I think it is important to move the community’s perception (see this week’s Kosher Today article on Campbell’s soup http://www.koshertoday.com). It is a terrible message to suggest that there is nothing a certification can to raise its standards and enforcement to acceptable levels. Doing so only benefits the larger certifications and hurts the kosher consumer, to say nothing of the reputations and livelihoods of those that work for the Half-Moon K.

Frankly, I thought this week’s Kosher Today was out of line. It purports to be a voice for the industry, but their Campbell’s article seems to suggest they’re just a puppet for the OU. I think it’s important to report that the KOAOA doesn’t have the same nationwide clout as the OU, but to use the term “low-ball” and express such shock over the change doesn’t seem very fair or impartial.

So, now that the Campbell’s Vegetarian Vegetable is going to be under the HMK instead of the OU, does anyone know if it’s still “recommended”?

Jabbett, being a muckraking Brandeis grad myself, I sent Kosher Today’s editor an e-mail to that effect. In the interests of politeness, I did not point out the inconsistency that KOAOA is an exhibitor at Kosher Fest 2006.

Jabbett - why would you assume that being the “voice of the industry” and a “puppet for the OU” are mutually exclusive - particularly when a big sticking point here appears to be price?

I’d imagine that other “big players” in the industry wouldn’t take too kindly to a competitor who reduces price. Sadly, the reaction is to cast aspersions on the certifier so that the less prominent certification will not translate into the same sales impact.

From the standpoint of the Kosher consumer, this approach is terribly unfortunate because it is in our interests for certification prices to be lower - so that the cost of obtaining certification is less of a barrier for producers. This is not to say that we are to dispense with having standards, but to describe the OU symbol as “coveted” (one could make a good 10th commandment joke here) and to imply that other certifications shouldn’t be trusted is both inappropriate and counter to the interests of Kosher consumers.

I think the last comment about the costs of obtaining certification shows a lack of familiarity with the process. While a small mom-and-pop opeation may not be able to affors the OU, a large company like Campbells would find the cost marginal. BUT that is just the couple of thousand dollars per year as a fee IF they need to change ingredients or hire additional mashgichim that would cost a large sum but that would be vital for universally accepted standards of supervision. So while the difference between the cost of OU and Half moon may be moderate, if one requires a mashgiach to be present at every facility every time it is kashered for a kosher run, while the other accepts the signature of the manager on duty certifying that everything was steam cleaned in approved manner, that would save them a fortune. But we might not want to eat it!

BS”D

But, Evan Michaels, that is the way half moon K used to operate under the late Rabbi Scharfman, but it is no longer the way it operates under Rabbi Hollander. Along with the halachic expertise of Rabbi Hissiger, the problems have been solved and the products are kosher.

Jabbet, Menachem Lubinsky is not the voice for the industry, but rather a voice for Menachem Lubinsky. He made lots of money putting on kosher food shows. He incessantly spoke of the growth of the kosher food industry in terms of products, but his discussion of growth of market was largely hyperbole, not nearly as great as the true growth rate of the market. Nontheless, he is largely responsible for the availability of diverse kosher products, because nobody in his right mind would invest time and money in a relatively static market. I wouldn’t trust Mr. Lubinsky as a voice for the kosher market, but I do give credit where it’s due.

As to the OU, it is still the most widely recognized kosher symbol, and its duo of poskim of R. Yisroel Belsky and R. Hershel Schachter is a wonderful argument for its acceptance by consumers. However, creditable halachic decisors mean little to the food producers. It’s strictly a “bottom line” question with them. So does the greater acceptance and therefore saleability of the brand under the OU justify the difference in cost difference? Certainly not in all cases. Furthermore, the OU is not the easiest hashgacha to deal with, tending to unilaterally increase costs each year disproportionately to its own increases in expenses. We always ran into difficulties at renewal time, and more than once seriously considered switching hashgachas. By the way, my rav is R. Belsky, and once it was only his intervention which prevented a 10% price increase, and therefore my leaving the OU. Be that as it may, the OU does a very creditable job of hashgacha, and I would recommend them, But not to the exclusion of many others. I have found smaller organizations to be much easier entities with which to negotiate price, all other things being equal. But then again, I was dealing with the principals of the organization rather than bureacrats. And even though I never switched, I maintain good relationships with a variety of smaller hashgachas, both private and community-based. The availability of these smaller, more personal hashgachas, can only serve to increase the number of certified plants and kosher products.

I think the comment in response to mine from Mr. Michaels shows a lack of understanding for how companies - both large and small - operate.

It’s true that the cost may not seem so big for a large corporation, but this particular soup franchise doesn’t get to play with the entire organization’s budget, and if the company is like just about any other one that I’ve worked or consulted with, they are getting squeezed in all directions to save money.

If another organization can certify the soup’s kashrut at a lower price, I’d bet that management would jump all over the opportunity for cost savings. As I suggested above, kosher consumers should welcome this as it becomes more likely that other products will be certified and while we should have some natural skepticism about hashgachot that we do not recognize, we also should not be so unbending as to never accept anything other than the OU (and a few other labels).

This week’s Kosher Today cites (paraphrases actually) from my letter to the editor noting that the HMK has improved its standard. FYI, I was informed that Campbell’s is acceptable.

As a member of the kashrus world I would have to disagree with Rabbi Hollander. I have personally been to many of the hmk factories and found them to be well below the major’s standards. I know that Kikkoman’s teriyaki has been an issue for years. The hmk just can’t seem to get there act together. I have nothing to gain from be- smudging another kosher agency other than that the kosher consumer being forewarned.
How long do you think is enough time to clean up this mess?

from the jewish week
Campbell’s Drops OU

Three years after famously gaining the Orthodox Union’s kashrut certification, Campbell’s Vegetarian Vegetable Soup has dropped OU for a new certifier, the Kosher Overseers Association of America, known for its “half-coin K” insignia, or the “half-moon.” An OU spokesman said the decision to not renew the contract was Campbell’s, and the end of their certification had nothing to do with issues of kashrut.

Rabbi Simcha Smolensky, the certifying rabbi for KOAOA, told The Jewish Week that he has been among the Orthodox rabbis brought in by KOAOA to upgrade its kashrut standards. In recent months they’ve dismissed all kashrut-related employees who were not Sabbath observant, and reconstituted their board of directors to be entirely observant, as well. As for Campbell’s Vegetarian Vegetable Soup, “There is no difference whatsoever in the production of that soup from when it was under the OU until today,” said the rabbi. “It’s the same kashering procedures under the same conditions.”

Campbell’s Juli Mandel Sloves, senior manager of nutrition and wellness communications, said that at the conclusion of their OU contract Campbell’s opened up their kashrut account for bidding. A deal with KOAOA “made sense,” she said. “We already had been working with KOAOA to certify V-8 and Campbell’s Tomato Juice,” said Sloves, “so this was an opportunity to unify our certification” for tomato products

Please correct spelling of Hissinger,or Hisinger or Hissiger to the correct spelling Hisiger.
Thanks!

Sorry Rabbi Hisiger. Guilty as charged.

Does anyone know if the Mrs. T’s Pirogies are ok to eat? An orthodox rabbi that I know, who has connections with Star K, called up their hotline and was told that they “do not recommend this product” although I feel like it is more politics than kashrut. They can’t say outright that a product isn’t kosher because then they could get sued for libel/slander.

Most kashrus organizations do not comment on _any_ commercial hashgacha other than their own.

That being said, if “Mrs. T’s Pirogies” is packaged with a Half-Moon K hashgacha your best move is to call the Half-Moon K itself, and ask them about the product’s status. If the heksher is legitimate they’ll let you know, and if it isn’t then they can begin taking the necessary steps to stop Mrs. T’s from falsly claiming their kosher certification.

I know of two independent rabbis active in the kashrus field who have stated that Mrs. T’s Pirogies are acceptable.

I emailed Half Moon K about the pierogies:

Hi
I was wondering if the product “Mrs. T’s Pierogies”, which bears the Half Moon K Dairy Symbol, is currently under your supervision.

The answer:

yes

That is good enough for me!

Thanks for letting us know how it worked out!

In general, there are more good HMK’s out there than bad. Two Erev Thanksgivings ago, I noticed that the maple syrup I’d purchased had a HMK heksher, and I was hesitant to use it without running the brand past HMK. (Those who know me will laugh grimly.) However, HMK’s offices had already closed for the day, so I called my Local Orthodox Rabbi and asked him what to do. He told me that there is very little that can be done to render pure maple syrup unkosher, and that since most HMKs are good these days (”these days” being Nov. ‘05) anyway, I could use the syrup without running it past HMK.

Meredith wrote:
“He told me that there is very little that can be done to render pure maple syrup unkosher, and that since most HMKs are good these days (”these days” being Nov. ‘05) anyway, I could use the syrup without running it past HMK.”

Actually - Maple Syrup was the product that I first cut my teeth on the HalfMoon-K hechsher about six years ago. At that time it was explained to me that there is a serious issue regarding maple syrup becausei nth eprocess of boiling it, it tended to boil and froth over and the only way to simmer it down is to place an emulsifier in it. This emulsifier is usually a slab of lard! Although it would be considered a minuscule amount and Botul B’shishim, we do not rely on Bitul L’chatchilah [as a first option] and that this was an area that Rabbi Scharfman was lenient on to the agreement of no one else. Other Hechsheirim insist that a synthetic emulsifier be used and then there’s no problem.
As of now, I know Rabbi ZB Hollander VERY WELL and he is a true Talmid chochom and ehrlicher person. I have spoken to him about the upgrading of the hechsher and he said what one of the early commenters wrote about everything being okay with a few exception [i.e. lettuce etc]. I am not an expert in Kashrus so I can’t say more than that but my conversation with him took place two months ago and I believe him to be reliable.

A slab of lard?!!? Oh please! They use a few DROPS of oil, usually olive oil. You are dealing with parts per MILLION if that. This is an industry standard. All “Pure” Maple Syrup is “adulterated” with a few drops (again, in PPM!) of oil which acts as an anti-foam.

I am very happy they have upgraded their standards. They supervise many delicious items such as most of the salsas sold in the USA.

This is the announcement that went out in the Seattle Va’ad newsletter this week:

§ Effective immediately, all KOAOA certified products (Half-Moon K hechsher) are acceptable for use with the following exceptions:

1. Pre-washed salads other than iceberg lettuce still require checking prior to use;
2. Crown Prince canned fish should not be used. It is still in the process of being reviewed at this time;
3. Dole fruit cups (plastic 4oz) from Thailand or Philippines are still under review at this time;

All other Half-Moon K products may now be used.

The Seattle Va’ad made this announcement based on the decision of R. Dovid Jenkins and R. Simcha Smolensky, who consult with the Seattle Va’ad.

Thumbs up to the Seattle Va’ad for publishing what several rabbis have been saying privately for some time. BTW, some hasgachos now do list “acceptable” certifications on their websites, e.g., cRc.

Kosherquest (Rabbi Eliezer Eidlitz) now states (email to me) unequivocally that HMK is acceptable and that he is just waiting for a logo in order to include them on his webpage.

Waiting for the logo? The logo is all over the internet and has been for years. I know that R. Eidlitz and others have signed off on the HMK but I fear that there are other factors in play here. Note, the Seattle Va’ad has removed their listing of the HMK (though they told me directly that they have no question the HMK is a fully reliable hechsher (one of their directors also works for the HMK); they mumbled something about not wanting to be the first out in front on this issue).

Half Moon K has been purchased by OU Rabbi Dovid Jenkins has been hired to handle the transition there is no public word in the kashrus industry that HMK’s are Ok ?????

BS”D

No reason I can think of for the OU to purchase Half Moon K, so I doubt kosher man. The OU needs to charge a premium price to support OU programs, since the kashrus division pays for the rest of the organization. The Half Moon K has made its niche through decreased cost and significantly different requirements. Therefore, the OU would not gain much, if any, financial benefit, with the same pricing structure, and will significantly lose Half Moon K customers if they either raise prices or place different, burdensome requirments on the companies, and anything which requires changes is burdensome to a company, so even switching poskim is likely to cause some companies to leave the fold. Bottom line is it doesn’t make sense for an OU purchase of HMK.

see this

http://eidlitz.via.readerimpact.com/sy/emails/published/8162/9400/index_complete.html

this is what it says in the above link

KOAOA (Kosher Overseers/Half Moon K) is joining the O/U as one kashrus agency. New products will either continue to bear the Half Moon K symbol or the the O/U

i called the ou they still do not stand behind the kashrus of all half moon k products.

the ou is soon to come out with a statement

i heard the ou puchased the half moon k