Kosher Blog

I think you’re being a little too hard on this particular affair. The Ridgewell’s thing was different - the family specifically wanted “kosher style.” While they didn’t get that, which is a separate issue, they knew what they were supposed to get, and it wasnt’ kosher.

In this case, I think this is *precisely* the fault of the caterers. Put yourself in the shoes of parents who don’t normally keep kosher but are trying to do a kosher bat mitzvah for whatever reason. I think we’re dealing with a fair amount of misrepresentation here. People who don’t themselves keep kosher homes but want a kosher affair rely on what they’re told by the caterer. If they thought they were dealing with the “kosher division” I think they had good reason to believe that they were getting a kosher affair, and that they would be told if there were costs they had to pay to ensure that happened. When I got married I relied on the fact my caterer was certified by the CRC and I didn’t worry about whether a separate “certification fee” was present on my bill - and I do keep a kosher home and care about such things. If one didn’t keep kosher, I can imagine one would rely on the statement of a caterer that they were, in fact, Kosher, assuming that they couldn’t say it if they weren’t.

That said, no caterer should be serving re-warmed crappy pizza at a nice catered affair no matter what level of kashrut we’re talking about.

Culinarily, I agree that serving rewarmed pizza was a bad move. But serving excellent, homemade treyfe pizza could have raised eyebrows, too… too good to be kosher! :)

Maybe I’m being hard, but I think the lesson needs to get across to anyone entertaining the thought of having a “kosher” affair. Caveat emptor! No matter what denomination or sect the supervision comes from, only a third-party mashgiach can assure any standard of kashrut of a caterer, especially one that also handles unkosher affairs. Even a “kosher division” is simply unqualified to makes assurances of kashrut on its own.

My point wasn’t about a specific fee. Your wedding was certified by the CRC. Mine was certified by the Va’ad of Massachusetts. The event in question was certified by no one, and that’s the plain fact. Maybe this family has a legitimate claim that their contract was violated, but in my opinion, it’s certainly not a kashrut issue.

I just wanted to say that even though I never make comments, I REALLY appreciate your blog. I collect all of your recipes. You’re a fabulous cook.

I understand your point, and for those of us who keep kosher homes and think about these issues a lot, of course we should think about certification. But we should have a klittle sympathy for (and perhaps activism on behalf of) people who are trying to have a kosher event when they don’t usually do so in their daily lives. These folks may have no idea that something can be represented as kosher when it isn’t. And I would think that the kosher community would have an interest in ensuring that businesses that represent themselves as kosher actually are. It sounds like this family (unlike the previous fiasco) was actually trying to have a kosher event and some combination of being misled and ignorance of what’s required led to a serious problem. I am quite comfortable dunning the business for that, much more than the family.

Very fair. I guess I assumed that by turning down the caterer’s kashrut fee, they were aware of what that meant and were just trying to save money. Of course, if they were ignorant of the true impact it would have, they deserved a better explanation from the caterer. In that regard, I think the disclaimer I suggested would do the trick. Caterer would be in the clear and client would have an inkling that turning down supervision is a bad idea.

Fundamentally, I think kashrut is about trust. The only reason the mashgiach system works is because we trust the mashgichim. When I eat at a friend’s home, I don’t insist on a mashgiach–I trust them to keep kosher.

In the simcha business, the caterers are always trying to convince the customers that they are friends. People planning Bar and Bat Mitzvahs, if they have no older children, may never have planned a simcha before. They may not realize yet that ‘the caterer is not your friend’. I think this may be part of the problem.

The company’s name is misleading. Period.

She turned down the certification because she thought (and the article makes it sound like) all she turned down was having someone present at the event. She didn’t know (and I wouldn’t have assumed either) that that meant none of the other kashrut steps she’d asked for would be taken - kosher food, kosher dishes, etc. She was misled. Agree completely that there should be a disclaimer, but in this case, even that might not have worked, since this woman didn’t even get the level of kashrut she’d been told she’d get. She presumably knew it wasn’t 100% perfect because she turned down the on-site supervision, but no where did she contract for non-kosher crappy pizza…. ;-)

I grew up in Takoma Park. Learning what is Kosher is not second nature to most people.

The onus falls on the mashgiach and the Rabbinical Supervision.

http://www.kosheretiquette.com

This seems to me not at all similar to the Ridgewell case. NOTE THE FOLLOWING QUOTATION FROM THE ARTICLE:

“she had a friend making chocolate centerpieces for the reception that might not have passed muster with the mashgiach.”

This suggests that there may have been a GOOD reason to decline the mashgiach, who may not have allowed them to bring in the uncertified homemade centerpieces. It would have been entirely reasonable for the family to accept the caterer’s assurance (though it would have been better to get it in writing) that the food would be prepared in the same way as if a mashgiach was present. That is especially true if the caterer was charging the same price except for a small fee!

It seems that the people having this affair hadn’t the slightest idea of how to keep kosher. It is not a surprise; there are many Jews like this. Unfortunately, it is not just with relation to kashrut that they lack basic Jewish knowledge.

The situation is not exclusive to the DC area, where this woman is from. Had the woman been interested, there is a full array of kosher services of all types available in the DC area-see: http://www.capitolk.org

She was simply interested in seeing that her guests would not eat pork or shrimp. That level of Judaism is a level which cannot be sustained; it is compounded by these same people giving their children not much of a Jewish education and being shocked-just shocked-that they marry non-Jews in large numbers. What else would one expect?

What suprises me the most is that it was a dairy affair catered by a caterer that is (at least the “kosher division” is anyway) under the Metro-K, which is under Conservative auspices. Who was the host trying to satify? If she had any Orthodox guests, 99% would not eat from a caterer with C-supervision. And if she had Conservative kosher guests, 99% would have no problem eating dairy from a non-kosher caterer. Other than that the pizza was cheap and lame, I wonder if there were any guests (other than maybe a Conservative rabbi) that were upset with the fact that they ate un-kosher non-meat pizza.

Good point, David.

I think the fault lies squarely with the customer. The catering company is caught in a difficult situation. If the consumer wants a kosher style affair, but is unwilling to pay for the supervision, the caterer can be leveraged into providing it. After all, no company wants to lose business if at all possible. However, the caterer needs to be clear that any affair without a mashgiach is, by definition, not kosher; not least because the mashgiach has the keys to the kosher kitchen which includes all of the kosher dishes, cutlery, pots and pans etc. I think that the best way for caterers to address this issue is by stating that any kosher-style event, even if it includes kosher food items, is not kosher…PERIOD

My problem with the DC Va’ad is that it claims exclusivity over all areas of kashrut within this geographical area. I grew up in New York, where this is not the case at all. The protectionism professed by the RCW (Rabbinical Council of Greater Washington) is such that a caterer supervised by Star-K (the Baltimore Va’ad), for instance, needs to have additional supervision by the DC Va’ad, if it wants to provide service in the DC area. Exclusivity, and a lack of competition is, by nature, a bad thing. It can, and inevitably will led to complacency and corruption. Let’s also not be fooled in assuming that the DC Va’ad is without faults. It missed Jack Abramoff’s violation of va’ad rules when he owned a controlling stake in a non-kosher restaurant at the same time he owned Stacks, the kosher deli under Va’ad supervision. Stacks has since closed, as have the fortunes of Mr. Abramoff. I haven’t even begun to talk about the “Moshe Dragon” scandal of the late 1980s (See Regardie’s Magazine, April 1990 issue pages 87-95). I am convinced, from personal experience, in Metro-K’s (the agency which supervises kosher events for both Ridgewells and the Knife and Fork) complete competency’s in supervising kosher events.

If customers are not savy or educated enough to understand the difference between a kosher and a non-kosher event, this is indeed sad. It is also a legitimate topic for a discussion on the failure of Jewish education and identity etc. However, it is wrong to blame the mashgiach, who was never hired, for the non-kosher status of a particular event. Neither is it correct to blame a caterer who was not specifically contracted to provide a kosher event for failing to do so.

Soon to be Married seems to be stating that the situation in the New York area as regards kashrut is better than that in the Washington area. It is not. There are a million-and-one hashgachot in the New York area, and one needs a scorecard to keep track of them and which is reliable.

In Washington, the local Orthodox rabbanim as a group certify local establishments. They do not establish seventeen different competing hashgachot.

The gentleman is correct in that mistakes may have been made, and he brings a couple of examples. Whatever mistakes that have been made have been made in a collective manner. There is also a value in collectively building up a system of kashrut in an area and realizing that a system of duplicative hashgachot is destructive to the community.

In any case, one wishes Soon to be Married well on his upcoming chatunah, and trusts that the Papa John pizza which may be served will be under proper kashrut supervision:-).

Steve,

My frustration is that a local rabbinical council
takes it upon itself to serve as a veto to choice. Although NY has lots of problems, and they have been well documented, it is possible to hire a caterer supervised by one of the national organizations without need for additional oversight. Due to politics and the desire to protect its turf, this RCW makes this impossible. In taking this attitude, the RCW attempts to maintain its “apparent” monopoly while passing the costs onto the consumer. Its monopoli1stic practices also allow it not to have to explain its actions or policies to the community at large.

I would argue that competitive hashgachot that keep high standards of kashrut are constructive and not destructive to the community, because they would service to increase efficiency in organization and decrease cost to the consumer. Competition would also force each of the competitors to become more open to community review, if needed. In all cases, like anything else, consumers have to be educated and do their homework. “Let the buyer beware” is the case for any customer in any situation, be it in the cost of the affair, or the level of kashrut offered at it.

As a personal protest, I try not to frequent stores with va’ad oversight. Fortunately, in a city with as large and developed a Jewish comminity as the DC area, this is relatively easy to do. Between Giant, (DC’s answer to Stop and Shop) Super Fresh, (DC’s answer to the A&P) Trader Joe’s, Wegman’s etc. there are plenty of other places where one can purchase kosher foods with reliable hasgacha. The prices are much lower. For example, I’ve been able to purchase Tillamook kosher cheddar for as low as $1.99/8 oz. when on sale. Trader Joes sells Empire poultry for a dollar less per pound and other items at a dollar less per item than va’ad supervised stores.

As for the pizza, my chatana doesn’t include any, so I don’t have to worry about it. :-) Seriously though, it is insulting to insinuate that someone who would go through the trouble of having a supervised kosher affair would have Papa John’s pizza served at it.

This is very much the fault of the caterer.

The family in question specified numerous times in meetings that this was to be a Kosher affair. Why else would they have rented specifically Kosher dishes? They were dealing with the “Kosher Division” of this catering service only, which is separate from the regular division and has separate letter head on which they print their contract agreement.

The family was under the assumption that this caterer had a Kosher kitchen. Had this not been the case, the caterer was under obligation to inform the customers that the affair would not be Kosher without the Mashgiach present while they cooked in a Kosher kitchen (not their kitchen). Other caterers they had contacted had informed them of that fact. Since they weren’t told this by Knife and Fork and since they were dealing with the Kosher division of Knife and Fork, the family assumed that Knife and Fork had their own Kosher kitchen.

Furthermore, at least one attendee from the Orthodox community had called Knife and Fork to check whether this was a Kosher event and was told that it was.

The fee had nothing to do with it. The Mashgiach fee is small in comparison to the whole cost of the catering.

As far as the DC Vaad is concerned, disgusted caterers have told me that the caterers that pay the most money are the ones that get certified and that certification has more to do with money than with rules (always the result of monopolies–religious institutions being no exception). Metro-K is known to follow the rules of Kashrut which have nothing to do with Orthodox or Conservative designations–or money paid under the table. And by the way, there are many within the Washington area Orthodox community who use private non-DC Vaad certified caterers that they know personally to follow strict Kashrut laws (and are affordable).

It’s not so clear that Metro-K is known to follow the rules. At my parents’ Maryland Conservative synagogue, which accepts Metro-K, they still require that the synagogue have its own maschgiach and the food must, in fact, be cooked in the synagogue’s kitchen. If their liberal C synagogue (incidently, my in-laws’ C synagogue also in MD only accepts Va’ad caterers) puts such restrictions on Metro-K caterers (this restriction DOES NOT exist w/ Va’ad caterers) clearly something is fishy.