Culinarily, I agree that serving rewarmed pizza was a bad move. But serving excellent, homemade treyfe pizza could have raised eyebrows, too… too good to be kosher!

Maybe I’m being hard, but I think the lesson needs to get across to anyone entertaining the thought of having a “kosher” affair. Caveat emptor! No matter what denomination or sect the supervision comes from, only a third-party mashgiach can assure any standard of kashrut of a caterer, especially one that also handles unkosher affairs. Even a “kosher division” is simply unqualified to makes assurances of kashrut on its own.

My point wasn’t about a specific fee. Your wedding was certified by the CRC. Mine was certified by the Va’ad of Massachusetts. The event in question was certified by no one, and that’s the plain fact. Maybe this family has a legitimate claim that their contract was violated, but in my opinion, it’s certainly not a kashrut issue.

I understand your point, and for those of us who keep kosher homes and think about these issues a lot, of course we should think about certification. But we should have a klittle sympathy for (and perhaps activism on behalf of) people who are trying to have a kosher event when they don’t usually do so in their daily lives. These folks may have no idea that something can be represented as kosher when it isn’t. And I would think that the kosher community would have an interest in ensuring that businesses that represent themselves as kosher actually are. It sounds like this family (unlike the previous fiasco) was actually trying to have a kosher event and some combination of being misled and ignorance of what’s required led to a serious problem. I am quite comfortable dunning the business for that, much more than the family.

Fundamentally, I think kashrut is about trust. The only reason the mashgiach system works is because we trust the mashgichim. When I eat at a friend’s home, I don’t insist on a mashgiach–I trust them to keep kosher.

In the simcha business, the caterers are always trying to convince the customers that they are friends. People planning Bar and Bat Mitzvahs, if they have no older children, may never have planned a simcha before. They may not realize yet that ‘the caterer is not your friend’. I think this may be part of the problem.

She turned down the certification because she thought (and the article makes it sound like) all she turned down was having someone present at the event. She didn’t know (and I wouldn’t have assumed either) that that meant none of the other kashrut steps she’d asked for would be taken - kosher food, kosher dishes, etc. She was misled. Agree completely that there should be a disclaimer, but in this case, even that might not have worked, since this woman didn’t even get the level of kashrut she’d been told she’d get. She presumably knew it wasn’t 100% perfect because she turned down the on-site supervision, but no where did she contract for non-kosher crappy pizza….

This seems to me not at all similar to the Ridgewell case. NOTE THE FOLLOWING QUOTATION FROM THE ARTICLE:

“she had a friend making chocolate centerpieces for the reception that might not have passed muster with the mashgiach.”

This suggests that there may have been a GOOD reason to decline the mashgiach, who may not have allowed them to bring in the uncertified homemade centerpieces. It would have been entirely reasonable for the family to accept the caterer’s assurance (though it would have been better to get it in writing) that the food would be prepared in the same way as if a mashgiach was present. That is especially true if the caterer was charging the same price except for a small fee!

What suprises me the most is that it was a dairy affair catered by a caterer that is (at least the “kosher division” is anyway) under the Metro-K, which is under Conservative auspices. Who was the host trying to satify? If she had any Orthodox guests, 99% would not eat from a caterer with C-supervision. And if she had Conservative kosher guests, 99% would have no problem eating dairy from a non-kosher caterer. Other than that the pizza was cheap and lame, I wonder if there were any guests (other than maybe a Conservative rabbi) that were upset with the fact that they ate un-kosher non-meat pizza.

I think the fault lies squarely with the customer. The catering company is caught in a difficult situation. If the consumer wants a kosher style affair, but is unwilling to pay for the supervision, the caterer can be leveraged into providing it. After all, no company wants to lose business if at all possible. However, the caterer needs to be clear that any affair without a mashgiach is, by definition, not kosher; not least because the mashgiach has the keys to the kosher kitchen which includes all of the kosher dishes, cutlery, pots and pans etc. I think that the best way for caterers to address this issue is by stating that any kosher-style event, even if it includes kosher food items, is not kosher…PERIOD

My problem with the DC Va’ad is that it claims exclusivity over all areas of kashrut within this geographical area. I grew up in New York, where this is not the case at all. The protectionism professed by the RCW (Rabbinical Council of Greater Washington) is such that a caterer supervised by Star-K (the Baltimore Va’ad), for instance, needs to have additional supervision by the DC Va’ad, if it wants to provide service in the DC area. Exclusivity, and a lack of competition is, by nature, a bad thing. It can, and inevitably will led to complacency and corruption. Let’s also not be fooled in assuming that the DC Va’ad is without faults. It missed Jack Abramoff’s violation of va’ad rules when he owned a controlling stake in a non-kosher restaurant at the same time he owned Stacks, the kosher deli under Va’ad supervision. Stacks has since closed, as have the fortunes of Mr. Abramoff. I haven’t even begun to talk about the “Moshe Dragon” scandal of the late 1980s (See Regardie’s Magazine, April 1990 issue pages 87-95). I am convinced, from personal experience, in Metro-K’s (the agency which supervises kosher events for both Ridgewells and the Knife and Fork) complete competency’s in supervising kosher events.

If customers are not savy or educated enough to understand the difference between a kosher and a non-kosher event, this is indeed sad. It is also a legitimate topic for a discussion on the failure of Jewish education and identity etc. However, it is wrong to blame the mashgiach, who was never hired, for the non-kosher status of a particular event. Neither is it correct to blame a caterer who was not specifically contracted to provide a kosher event for failing to do so.

Steve,

My frustration is that a local rabbinical council
takes it upon itself to serve as a veto to choice. Although NY has lots of problems, and they have been well documented, it is possible to hire a caterer supervised by one of the national organizations without need for additional oversight. Due to politics and the desire to protect its turf, this RCW makes this impossible. In taking this attitude, the RCW attempts to maintain its “apparent” monopoly while passing the costs onto the consumer. Its monopoli1stic practices also allow it not to have to explain its actions or policies to the community at large.

I would argue that competitive hashgachot that keep high standards of kashrut are constructive and not destructive to the community, because they would service to increase efficiency in organization and decrease cost to the consumer. Competition would also force each of the competitors to become more open to community review, if needed. In all cases, like anything else, consumers have to be educated and do their homework. “Let the buyer beware” is the case for any customer in any situation, be it in the cost of the affair, or the level of kashrut offered at it.

As a personal protest, I try not to frequent stores with va’ad oversight. Fortunately, in a city with as large and developed a Jewish comminity as the DC area, this is relatively easy to do. Between Giant, (DC’s answer to Stop and Shop) Super Fresh, (DC’s answer to the A&P) Trader Joe’s, Wegman’s etc. there are plenty of other places where one can purchase kosher foods with reliable hasgacha. The prices are much lower. For example, I’ve been able to purchase Tillamook kosher cheddar for as low as $1.99/8 oz. when on sale. Trader Joes sells Empire poultry for a dollar less per pound and other items at a dollar less per item than va’ad supervised stores.

As for the pizza, my chatana doesn’t include any, so I don’t have to worry about it. Seriously though, it is insulting to insinuate that someone who would go through the trouble of having a supervised kosher affair would have Papa John’s pizza served at it.

It’s not so clear that Metro-K is known to follow the rules. At my parents’ Maryland Conservative synagogue, which accepts Metro-K, they still require that the synagogue have its own maschgiach and the food must, in fact, be cooked in the synagogue’s kitchen. If their liberal C synagogue (incidently, my in-laws’ C synagogue also in MD only accepts Va’ad caterers) puts such restrictions on Metro-K caterers (this restriction DOES NOT exist w/ Va’ad caterers) clearly something is fishy.