Kosher Blog

We, in Dayton, OH, were surprised to see this. However, after having Trader Joe’s (in Kettering, OH) contact the manufacturer, they assured us that North Beach Mozarella cheese will soon be displaying a tablet K hechsher.

I’ve seen cappiello’s Mozzarellas at my local Stop and Shop in Stamford, CT, and also in one of those HUGE Wegman’s in Chester County, PA.

I hope that these are available at all of their branches.

I assume all kosher-observant consumers are aware that Tablet-K certification is worthless!

Cappiello’s braided varieties are also available around here, but they’re harder to shred, they’re more expensive, and the flavor of the plain braided cheese is a bit smokier than that of the plain block cheese.

Eli–there is more than one standard of kashrus. I keep a kosher home according to Conservative standards, and accept the Tablet-K certification as a marker of vegetarian rennet. If you don’t accept this hecksher, I understand why not, but don’t assume that everyone keeps kosher in exactly the same way, accepting the same heckshers!

to eli
please tell me which tablet k products and plants you personally .visited and exactly what you personally saw that needs to be corrected.simply making public statements from things that you heaRD AND REPEAT IS NOT PROPER.there are many frum people that do eat tablet k products.who personallly are familiar the orthodox oranization..
I would recommed for your readinG the CHOFETZ CHIAM SEFER ON SHEMIRAS HALOSHON.

Anon – something is either kosher or not [just like either pregnant or not]. In the kosher marketplace, it is well known that Tablet K is substandard. As to the products and plants tabletK visitor is looking for, there isn’t enough space here to list them all. It’s time for tabletk to stop pretending to sell kosher, and start selling Chofetz Chaim books.

As far as the Tablet K goes, this rabbi also does not allow it for his congregation. And, some of my friends who happen to be Conservative rabbis have told me that the Rabbinical Assembly (the org. of C rabbis) has taken the position that the Tablet K is not to be used by C Jews.

As one who deals in Kosher matters and who writes extensively about Kashruth issues, I am aware of some issues pertaining to Rabbi Safra’s supervision. Suffice it to say, that in my rabbinic opinion, it is not a trustworthy hashgacha.

Eli wrote (summary, not quote) that it is well known in the kosher market place that the Tablet K is not a good hechsher. Well, therein lies a huge problem. What is common knowlege in the kosher marketplace is quite often totally false, or based on way out of date information, or baseless rumor. There are people who seem to have perfect knowlege of every given situation, except they are wrong.

The market may be correct on this one, but it is false to use that as a basis for fact. Just because it is true one time does not mean that it is true across the board.

My point is: let’s base ourselves on real information and not some nebulous notion of “everybody knows” Everybody knows works well as a Leonard Cohen song- it does not work well in kashruth.

The Rabbinical Assembly does NOT make any pronouncements about which heckshers are and are not acceptable–these are considered local matters, to be decided by the rabbi of each community. There is a 1972 Teshuvah by the R. Issac Klein stating that cheese does not require a hecksher; however not all Conservative Jews follow this ruling. More recent rulings have focused on the acceptability of cheese make with microbial enzymes, without a hecksher (see http://www.rabbinicalassembly.org/teshuvot/docs/19912000/abelson_microbial.pdf), and which cheeses require a hecksher during Pesach (see http://www.rabbinicalassembly.org/teshuvot/docs/20012004/40.pdf)

There are a number of Conservative Jews who do not eat cheese made with animal rennet without a hecksher, but will eat cheeses made with vegetable or microbial rennet. For such people, the Tablet K is a valuable marker, as all cheeses marked with the Tablet K use vegetarian or microbial rennet.

As for whether something is either kosher or not….think of kitniot during Pesach. Kosher for Sephardim, not Kosher for Ashkenazim.

Anon’s example of kitniot is poor. Kitniot is kosher for all. The issue is whether it can be used on Pesach, but whatever the answer is, it is kosher. The kosher marketplace indeed “knows” that tablet K is not a hechsher;it is a private business with no kashrut standards, staff or criteria. This is well known not only by knowledgable Jews, but sadly by non- Jewish companies as well.

The Trader Joe’s in Acton has it’s own brand OU cert Mozzarella. The new Shaw’s in Groton carries a nice variety of Capiello OU cheese, including the Scamorza, which was not available at the Nashua Shaw’s where I usually shop. BTW, this new Shaw’s also has a slightly larger frozen kosher section than Nashua.

A few things for Eli to consider is that (1) some see the OU the way you see the Tablet K (those observing Cholov Yisrael, for instance), (2) My wife and I purchased frozen soybeans bearing a star K hechsher and after boiling them, found snails in our pots; does this mean the star K is not reliable anymore?, and (3) a kashrut supervisor, whoever he may be, takes responsibility for the kashrut of his organization; don’t think that just because something bears the mark of what you see as a reliable hechsher that no mistakes are made; I was present assisting the supervision of kashrut at a facility run by the Vaad of MA, and mistakes were made. Does this mean you won’t eat all foods marked with the Vaad hechsher – and encourage others to do the same?

There are generally accepted minimum standards which the major kashrut organizations hold by. When contacted and asked whether the kashrut symbol in question is OK to rely upon, the answer is that it is not recommended.

As for the standards of “Conservative” kashrut, what is the percentage of Jews in this “movement” who keep kosher? We all know it is negligible. So why bother discussing what the standards of their kashrut are when even their own constituents don’t particularly pay any attention.

Thanks for dismissing me (and the community I live in, my friends all over the country, etc.) as unworthy of posting here, Steve. You may “all know our numbers are negligible,” but how exactly do you know this? And why are our numbers the most important thing about us? People dismissed Orthodoxy as irrelevant because of its small numbers 50 years ago. It is a mistake to dismiss observant Conservative Judaism now based only on our numbers.

Here we go again.
This forum should be asking why cheese makers like this one and Cabot have elected to have “OU” oversight for some runs and not others. We all read the Cabot mangement state clearly that they employ the same manufacturing standards at all times, but because of ECONOMIC pressure have only elected to pay the steep price for “OU” oversight on a limited basis. It would appear that the economics for “OU” oversight have not been substantiated as we have yet to see Cabot roll out any other lines.

Additionally, we have again been drawn into the intolerant discussion of so called “Orthodox” versus “Conservative”. That misses the point. Consider: in the region served by the London Beit Din many products are “reccomended” by that organization EVEN where there is no “pay to play” oversight. (eg Sharwoods products [made in England only])

Once again, in call upon those in this forum to carefully consider their observations. We should strive as kosher foodies to locate and discuss the best kosher products. Let us act to hasten the comming of the Moshiach (Messianic Era).

Harlan,

The manufacturing process may be the same but if you re-read what they actually said back then – there is a difference in what the mashgiach does/what they do when they are there.

As for the LBD – England is a very different situation – due to the small size of its Jewish population – many companies don’t think it is worthwhile to pay for certification, so the LBD goes and checks out many products to see if they are acceptible as is and then lists them in a book, which they then charge for (some parts may be available through different web-sites). So kosher consumers are paying anyway, is it really: a) that different than the system here? and b) that much better for the kosher consumer?

In his Nov. 9 posting, Anon stated:

The Rabbinical Assembly does NOT make any pronouncements about which heckshers are and are not acceptable–these are considered local matters, to be decided by the rabbi of each community….

Wrong!

I spoke with two representatives of the RA and both of them said that the Law Committee of the RA came out with a recommendation to their members that they not use Tablet K certified products. One of those men was the author of the statement.

Got a source for such a recommendation? Where was it distributed or published? My rabbi’s been pretty adamant in saying that the RA says nothing of the kind, and the CJLS archives (now online) contain nothing like that…

Dear Anon-
Your Rabbi may be adamant, but he is wrong. End of story. I tell you that I spoke with the author of the recommendation and you still ask for a source? Ask your rabbi if has ever heard of Rabbi Paul Plotkin, head of the RA’s kosher committee. He was the author of the letter your rabbi denies. I spoke with Rabbi Plotkin, and (disclosure time) have known him for more than 30 years.)Rabbi Plotkin wrote the letter that was sent to RA members.

If you want to further discuss this, I suggest you contact me off this blog so as to not waste anyone’s time.

Last of all, cheese made by non Jews is forbidden to Jews, even if the ingredients are kosher. It is called gvinat akum.

Dear Rabbi Rappaport,

You were correct and I was incorrect. I asked my rabbi about this over Shabbat, and he contacted Rabbi Plotkin after Shabbat ended. Rabbi Plotkin confirmed what you said about the RA’s recommendation regarding the Tablet-K. My synogogue’s kashrut policy is now being ammended!

A few comments if you please regarding Kashrut:

1. We have the most recent Kashrut disc from the Conservative Movement. Nowhere does it discuss inapproprate hechshers. However, it does discuss a cheese ingredient called Pepsin which is a rennet extender, It then gives four recommendations of what synagogues may do regarding their kashrut policy vis-a-vis cheese. I am unaware of any discussion on that disc about Tablet K.
2. If a Rabbi is to grant a hechsher, is it not incumbent upon that individual to take responsibility and that the individual purchaser is somewhat less responsible?
3. I recall as a young man in the early 1950’s a conversation at our synagogue in Seattle when the O-U designation was just beginning to make strides. An individual mentioned that it should become so strong that if they were to put a hechsher on a ham, people would eat i! What has become of that sense of national jewry? Now we have so much sectarianism going on that it has yielded a plethora of hechshers. How can you check each one and feel comfortable as an individual purchaser?
4. During my life, I have personally seen the rabbinate in various cities use Kashrut for political purposes, Sometimes accompanied with vicious gossip. I had a friend, a medical student at the time, who worked in a kosher meat packing plant as a summer job. He complained frequently about the confusion in labeling the parts from each animal. He said you would be surprised how often kosher and non-kosher animal parts would get mixed up.
5. How about some comments about quality and quality control? We’ve all purchased meet tough as nails, stale bread, products beyond the pull date, packaged and frozen goods with all the flavor of cardboard and products from Israel with strange chemical odors and tastes let alone very poor quality varietal wine.
6. Lastly, for those of us who keep kosher and live in small towns across America, the distribution system for Kashrut is a joke. Why can’t the Rabbinate of all stripes get together and make sure that all kosher keeping jews have the opportunity to purchase quality products in a reasonable manner? And, it doesn’t matter if they are frum, modern orthodox, conservative, reform, reconstructionist, renewal, agnostic, aetheist or just non-jews who like the concept.

Lowell– I feel your comments are an appropriate stepping stone for me to close this conversation.

In regard to questions 1, 2 and 3, the answer is simply (and always) “ask your rabbi”! Our Jewish legal system puts issues of kashrut squarely in the hands of one’s mara d’atra. Don’t feel satisfied with a simple up or down vote? Use a sh’aila to launch a dialog on how your rabbi formulates his kashrut decisions. While most rabbis would refrain from publishing the details of such touchy matters, I’ve found that most are more than willing to discuss things one on one.

Quality control? As I learned with the first feather-ridden chicken my mother ever brought home from the kosher butcher, kosher is, unfortunately, not about quality. It’s only about religious standards. Every consumer, kosher or not, has to deal with quality issues — be vocal with manufacturers, develop relationships with purveyors, experiment with new products… isn’t that what being a ‘foodie’ is all about? Blame stale bread on a seedy bakery, not on its rabbinic supervision.

Your thoughts on distribution sound like a cart-before-the-horse situation. While finding kosher products in the mainstream is getting easier every day, it still comes down to one’s priorities. If someone really wants to visit Japan or hike the Andes, then he’ll sacrifice eating at four-star kosher restaurants. On the other hand, if you’re after the freshest kosher meats, fish, prepared foods, restaurants, products, what-have-you, then living in a substantial Jewish community has to be one’s priority, even if it means sacrificing certain other luxuries.

While it’s important to engage in critical discussion among the Kosher Blog community, let’s try to stay focused on “finding the finer side of everyday kosher living!”

Yeah, but why should gevinat akum apply in 21st century, when most cheeses use microbial rennet? If the whole basis of the law is the use of animal rennet, it seem illogical to apply it to microbial rennet.

The issue isn’t animal rennet. The issue is that an Jew must be the one to place the rennet in the dairy that becomes cheese. In the past, in addition to animal rennet, there was also rennet made from flowers but the halacha of gevinas yisroel still applied. If the issue were only rennet, then merely observing the rennet being added would be sufficient, but it is not. The halacha in Yoreh Deah specifies that the rennet must be added by a Jew.

To bring it back to the original topic of Trader Joe’s pulling their mozzarella, is there anywhere in Los Angeles that sells high quality, fresh mozzarella. The processed isn’t doing it for me anymore.

Not sure if this is the right place, but I’m trying to figure out how one can have kosher Parmigiano Reggiano, as seems to be available here http://www.sirio.com/fanticini/English/Products/PR/kosher.htm.

I thought that all PR had to be made in a particular way, and as far as I understood, it was with an animal rennet. With so much treyf around, I don’t get how it could get a hechsher from a Milanese rabbi.

Excellent question. According to the Consorzio del Formaggio Parmigiano-Reggiano, European Community regulations require the use of calf’s rennet, and routine inspections are done to assure that non-animal or genetically-modified sources of rennet are not used.

The simplest possible explanation: they’re using kosher calf’s rennet.

Why we can use calf’s rennet at all is the next logical question, and the answer requires an advanced understanding of the halachic factors in play. Referring back to the R. Jachter’s article on Gevinat Akum, we see three possible explanations. The Rambam’s: the rule that a davar hama’amid (something that establishes the form of an item, e.g. rennet) is never battel b’shishim (nullified when less than 1/60th of a solution) applies only when the davar hama’amid itself is prohibited. Conversely, if the rennet is kosher, then it cannot create a prohibited mixture expressly because it is a davar hama’amid.

Definitely something worthwhile to chat about with your rabbi.

A friend of ours orders Parmigiano Reggiano from kosheritalia.com. According to the website, the cheese is under strict Orthodox supervision and all certificed Kosher L’Mehadrin. Because of the discussion on this blog, I asked our Rabbi, who works for the Star-K, whether it was possible that in Europe an Orthodox Rabbi would certify as kosher a cheese made from animal rennet. He stated that there was no way any Orthodox Rabbi would provide such a certification. He also stated that European companies are not required to use calf rennet (he has eaten cheese from Switzerland). However, he was not familiar with the Rabbis listed on the website, so he could not give me an answer as to their reliability. He agreed to look into the certification and when I hear back from him, I will post his answer.

Suzanne, Kosher animal rennet can be made by drying out the stomach linings – in such a case where the stomach lining is so dry it is considered like wood and loses it’s meat status. See the article by Rabbi Jachter referred to in the earlier comments. The previous comment before you specifically mentioned that the issue was that the title Parmigiano Reggiano has strict EU rules associated with how it’s made, including that it must use calf rennet. Not European cheeses in general.

And By the way Switzerland is not part of the EU so it doesn’t necessarily have to abide by EU naming rules (though they might have signed some treaty requiring them to do so).

Suzanne,
The kosher animal rennet still needs to come from a cow/calf killed by shechita. The drying process, in combination with using it in a less-than-one-sixtieth ratio allows to l’chatchila use it with dairy in cheese production.

I got an email the other day from Cappiello (I had contacted them about why they weren’t at Trader Joe’s anymore), and they told me that they are planning to sell cheese online direct to the consumer. Here are the first few paragraphs of the letter I received.

We would like to take this time to thank you for your inquiries and requests, in regards to our line of fine line Italian cheese products all of which are Certified Kosher for Dairy by the Orthodox Union. Unfortunately, at this time, many of you are now unable to purchase our products from your local markets. We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused you, especially during this holiday season. We would like you to know Cappiello Dairy has been working diligently to rectify this situation, as it is our Number 1 goal to ensure that you, our customer, always have access to the products you know and love.

Effective 2/1/06, Cappiello products will be available for purchase via our website, http://www.cappiello.com. On this site you will be able to choose from our entire specialty mozzarella cheese line as well as our dairy mozzarella. These products will be shipped directly from our manufacturing facility in Schenectady, New York to your selected address within 48 hours of your order. All Shipping and Handling costs will be included in the listed pricing.

As you know, the shelf life of our specialty lines run between 6 months to 1 year, if properly refrigerated, and are Kosher for dairy. As an internet customer you will also be notified of all new products and given the ability to purchase them in an advanced period.

David– We reported this on 12/28… see Cappiello to sell cheeses online.

Jabbett, thanks for telling me. I just found this blog as I was searching for updated information about Trader Joe’s and kosher mozzarella cheese. I haven’t had a chance to search the whole blog yet.

FYI, I just heard back from my Rabbi at the Star-K and he said after investigating, his office found the Rabbinical Supervision at kosheritalia.com for the Italian (including Parmigiano Reggiano) and French cheeses to be reliable.

My son will be attending Dartmouth College beginning fall of 2006. I have just learned that the hashkokha of the kosher dining facility there is that of Tablet-K. While my son might find this acceptable for his purposes, I am concerned that Jews of a more stringent view might decide against attending Dartmouth College for this reason. As a result, my son would be deprived of the presence of these individuals in his college experience and that he, and the other Jewish students on campus would be the poorer for it.

If you are happy with Tablet-K hashkohka, that is fine for you. But where the greater Jewish population is concerned, hashkokha should be above reproach.

[...] The comments on a recent posting at kosherblog.net give a sense of the controversy.  [...]

Did any of you ever consider calling a Rav to ask a sheila?????????? In stead of searching random websites where nobody has a hechsher….

And BTW to whomever assumed that people who observe Cholov Yisroel don’t go by OU is so WRONG! We meening our family are very strict Cholov Yisroel observers, and do enjoy a number of OU products – NOT OUd but OU!

BTW

MOSHIACH NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I’m not sure if it makes a difference but I work at Cappiello’s. I’m not Jewish but I interact with our Rabbi all the time. I can tell you that ALL our ingredients must come with documentation certifying them Kosher. Our Rabbi and the OU inspect the documents, our inventory, and our process regularly. Our Rabbi is here every day. He adds the rennet to every vat. If he is not here, we don’t make cheese that day. Our cheese is not Cholov Yisrael and we do not claim it to be unless it is a special run and then it is clearly maked on the package. Again, I don’t know if it matters or helps.

Tablet K certification is DEFINITELY NOT KOSHER.
Rabbi Rafael Saffra certifies as kosher foods that are sold in restaurants serving pork and shellfish. The company is a money-making proposition for the Rabbi who was thrown out of his temple.

A kosher food can be sold in a non-kosher restaurant without it becoming non-kosher. It is common, for example, for very observant Jews to eat fruit, cottage cheese, coffee or in some cases desserts in non-kosher establishments when it can be ascertained that the product is itself kosher and was not “contaminated” in any way. The details are too involved to list here, but suffice it to say that it is possible. Examples: H&H bagels certified by Kof-K while other freshly baked products are not (all sold in open bins). Baskin Robbins is certified even though it may be sold in a Dunkin Donuts selling pork. The devil is in the details, as they say.

I can personally attest that there are real problems with the Tablet-K in that its standards are different from those of other kashrut agencies and after personal investigation and discussion with Rabbi Saffra, I no longer rely on that hechsher (though its hechsher does not make the product itself non-kosher merely by its presence).

I think that during the 9 days especially, though certainly year-round, it is inappropriate to be making personal attacks on a fellow Jew or otherwise sow the seeds of sinat chinam. It is sufficient to state why a hechsher may have issues and recommend that a person consult with a knowledgeable authority (hopefully one’s Rabbi).

I took the time to read all the blog……I find that being part of the kosher comunity , being invited to visit companies on a regular base. The fact that a product bears a HERSHER does not mean it is 100% . People should look into a product and see if they are o.k with the kosher standards. As for the tablet -k I guess they have what to base themselves on so for someone who is looking for that COOLA this might be an option. For someone who is more MAHMIR then they should be more demanding from all the HEHSHERS. Iike the OU certified tuna. No masgiah , no BISHUL ISRAEL. What makes its different from the tablet-k frosen fish ? You need to look at the product and not the HERSHER. It is very hard for one organiztion to satisfy all levels of Kashrut.

I took the time to read all the blog……I find that being part of the kosher community , being invited to visit companies on a regular base. The fact that a product bears a HERSHER does not mean it is 100% . People should look into a product and see if they are o.k with the kosher standards. As for the tablet -k I guess they have what to base themselves on so for someone who is looking for that COOLA this might be an option. For someone who is more MAHMIR then they should be more demanding from all the HEHSHERS. Like the OU certified tuna. No masgiah , no BISHUL ISRAEL. What makes its different from the tablet-k frozen fish ? You need to look at the product and not the HERSHER. It is very hard for one organization to satisfy all levels of Kashrut.