Kosher Blog

The Ner Tamid K is a small agency. They generally have a reputation for being very careful and very good. The hashgacha comes from one of the rabbis connected with the MTJ yeshiva.

I lived on Staten Island for twenty years, and,thus, knew the organization fairly well.

FYI: I just asked my LOR and was told not to use this hechsor. It is a shame since those products look great. It would be best to aks your LOR before partaking.

Looks like a split decision so far.

David: WHen your LOR said not to use it, was that because he had never heard of it or was it because he thought it unreliable?

There’s a big difference, especially when posting to the internet.

I know nothing about this heksher, but suspect that your LOR was simply saying he had no information, especially in light of the other poster, who did have the info.

I also asked my LOR, and he sayeth “no”.

Once again, you have to ask the follow-up to the LOR: “Are you saying ‘No’ because you have never heard of it or is it because you know that it is unreliable.

We would really like to know more about the Ner Tamid K heksher since there is one Indian vegetarian restaurant in Denver, CO that uses it and we need to know whether it really is kosher as it says. Can anyone help?

In response to Yaakov:
Yes, the LOR I asked HAD heard of this hechsher and said not to use it. He prefers not to use the term “unreliable” because of the problems that can result from using that term. He basically said he would not eat it, or allow it as an ingredient in something that he approving.
I am not saying this as the final word, just trying to show that this hechsher seems to be very not cut and dried in its acceptance. People should ask a Rav. If your Rav that you bring kashrus questions to says you can eat it, then go ahead.

I called the Chicago Rab. Council, CRC is universally accepted in the Kashrus world here and in Israel, and they said “no products from this hescher are recommended” It sounds like it is iffy at best. I probably would eat the stuff if I was traveling and could not get anything else to eat, but I most likely will not use it in my house unless I can get some more information.

I was in an establishment on Thursday night that had this hechsher, and it just didn’t feel right — Psak — Max and Eric wouldn’t eat there.

I am an Orthodox Jew who attends East Denver Orthodox Synagogue in Denver, I am the local masgiach for the Denver Woodlands Restaurant and Bakery. This establishment is under Rabbi Dov Hazdan. The Denver Woodlands is vegetarian/mostly vegan. The only aminal product used is milk (under the Vaad of Denver). The milk is used in making a soft cottage cheese product and to produce yogurt. I inspect the Woodlands once per week as per instructions from Rabbi Hazdan. I am a Registered Dietitian with a degree in food Science.

Well, I called the Staten Island Young Israel. (The hechsher in question is based in staten island). This Rabbi said don’t eat it.

I am so frustrated about this. They look like terrific products, rennetless cheeses etc.

What could the problem be here, any help?

Why is this Rav’s hechsher so un-trustworthy?????? anoybody??????

The irony is that it’s most often the local rabbis who are most skittish about a regional hashgacha. (There are rabbis in Boston who won’t endorse KVH, rabbis in Baltimore who won’t endorse Star-K, and apparently now a rabbi on Staten Island who won’t up Ner Tamid K.)

Perhaps it’s not irony. Perhaps it’s the local rabbis that really know what’s going on with their local region’s hashgacha. What’s more irksome is that those local rabbis just put up with it, rather than trying to work out the kinks with the certifiers.

One issue with this certification is that they approve establishments that sell kosher and non-kosher items w/o a mashgiach temidi. See the attached article regarding Ner Tamid certification of a Dunkin Donuts that sells bacon. http://www.yuobserver.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2005/04/14/425f105e65d2c

Why is it that organic/vegan products, in general, tend to have hasgochos that are not recommended?

While oragnic food production poses many kashrus problems, many reputable hasgochos certify organic products. Kosher consumers must leverage their power as was done for Cabot cheese.

Simple: the buy in by the large oversight organizations is too expensive. We know this expressly from the Cabot interview, although it has long been suspected by the undersigned.

If the OK, OU, KofK, etc. were serious about broadening the ability of jews to observe karshrut, then they would lower the bar to entry and find another profit center to tax.

Finally, the discuccion of NerTamid is a smear. No one reports having engaged in direct contact with Ner Tamid. Rather the first evaluations are hearsay reports of persons who are interested in discrediting the oversight.

These are not hearsy reports. These are first person reports of people asking there Rav’s opinion of the hechshor and being told not to use it. It shows a great lack of respect for Rabbaim to accuse them of having motives other than the furthering of halachic observance and being motivated by financial factors. When you encounter a hechshor you have never seen before, don’t you ask a competent authority, or do you just assume that every symbol is alright?
As for contacting the Ner Tamid directly, what good would that do? Of course they are going to say they are reliable.
Go ask your LOR if they are OK and if he says yes, enjoy.

It is indeed relying on hearsay to base your behavior on the beliefs of others whether they are rabbis or otherwise. This is not to suggest that hearsay can not be reliable, but you impugin theintegrity of the entity in question by doing so.

I would feel differently if someone said they tried to contact the organization and were rebuffed or received unsatisfactory information.

By keeping kosher isn’t one ipso facto basing their behavior on the beliefs of others? (The others in this case being Rabbis.) Since most of the details of kashrut come from rabbinical ordinances.

Absolutely. The problem I have here is that those who were consulted did not give reasons why Ner Tamid is not acceptable. But rather gave the “because” style answer. As a result, we dont know whether those people have a basis in fact to reject the oversight, there are political reasons or perhaps a combination of the two.

I don’t ask my Rabbi “Why isn’t xxx hashgacha acceptable?” All I ask is “*IS* xxx hashgacha acceptable?”

That is all that is required of me. And I’m free to pass that on. If I chose to pursue the “why,” that is up to me, but it has nothing to do with the process. I have a halachic authority, I rely on him.

And as for “why,” the YU Observer article was pretty forthright in explaning that. The Rabbi from NTK was just as forthright in explaining his position. No hearsay there - straight from the horse’s mouth.

I can’t quote you the reason why Half-Moon K, Triangle-K, and the litany of others on the list are “not acceptable.” I don’t really need to know beyond “they are not up to the same standards.” Enough answer for me. If you need more, you’re free to investigate, but that doesn’t mean that I have to.

I’ve heard from reliable sources that the half-moon K has changed and become an acceptable heksher again.

According to my Rabbi, they are changing standards. They’re still “in process,” so it’s a product-by-product thing, but I was told you can call half-moon K, and they’ll be pretty frank with you as to whether a product is under the new standards or the old. Haven’t tried it yet, though I am getting a hankering for Pace Thick & Chunky. :)

I have talked to the rabbi who gives the hasgacha , Rabbi Dov Hazden a few months back. he lives in Staten Island and is connected to Rav Moshe’s son and mentioned we can contact him if we had any questions regarding his reliability. I personally decided to eat the kosher Amy’s products due to the fact that we must trust when someone claims a product is kosher due especially due to losing a positive reputation.

People treat kashrus as black or white. Either a certain hashgochoh is acceptable or not. Rarely do they look at individual accounts to see if the certification is up to standard.

If their hashgochoh of the Dunkin Donuts, is indiciative of their approach to all their certification, forget it. If this is just an anomoly, other products may be acceptable. One has to investigate who is the masgiach and what it the level of supervision.

Here is a partial list of questions regarding any hasgochoh:
1) Is the frequency of visits by the mashgiach sufficient for what is produced?
2) Given the nature of organic produce you all produce must be thorougly checked for infestation. Some produce by its very nature is so infested that it is impossible to insure that is it bug free. Here you run into a wide range of standards many of which are not acceptable.
3) Do the products meet the standards of bishul yisroel? Here again you run into a wide range of standards. The orthodox stance, based on a ruling of R Shlomo Zalman Orbach ztl, is to be stringent when it comes to issues of bishul yisroel.
4) What is their position for herbs and spices? Many prepared herbs and spices, especially ones used in oriental cooking, come from east asia. Products from these areas require very scrupulous hasgochoh.
5) For milchig products, what is their position on whey. The normative orthodox position is that whey must be derived from gvinas yisroel. Even though many cheeses today, are made from micribial rennet, if they are not gvinas yisroel, the whey by product is not acceptable.
6) What is their position on enzymes derived from non-kosher sources such as gelatine, rennet, etc?
7) What is their position with items produced on Shabbos and holidays when there cannot be a mashgiach present to check standards, ensure bishul yisroel etc?

8) What is their standard for koshering equipment between kosher and non-kosher runs.

just ate one. tasty. i have yet to hear from anybody that this is a good hescher, but the food yetzer ho ra has a hold o’ me big time. i figure it is a lot better to eat one of these than to totally trayfe out when the Sutun gets his hooks into you. teshuvah in my future, but hopefully not too bad, as i am pretty secure that this food is not trayfe, but not all that acceptable. i did speak to R. Hazdan and he said he eats it himself, if that is worth anything. as i said, it is better than eating totally un hechshered trayfe.

Excuse my ignorance, but what is “gvinas yisroel”?

Also, I have been told by many people in my community that “I won’t say it is not kosher, but I won’t eat in your house if you have it …” for many hasgochah.

And finally, this is the first time I heard that half moon K had a problem. Thanks

Gvinas yisroel literaly means Jewish Cheese. It is a rabbinical requirement that an observant Jew be the one to put the rennet in the dairy that becomes cheese. It isn’t sufficient to just see the process. A very few hashgagot, like Tablet-K for example, don’t require this. I don’t know what they base this on. This is one of the many reasons that most Orthodox Jews don’t trust it. Technically, non-givanas yisroel cheese isn’t treif, if it has all kosher ingredients, (I don’t feel that Tablet-K cheese would treif my dishes) one is simply forbidden to eat it. It is similar to pas yisroel and bishul yisroel (except for the opinion that non-pas yisroel is accetable for commerical purposes, i.e. pas palter.)

Gevinat Yisrael is discussed, with excellent citations, here.

Personally, I find the tradition of following the harder line (Rama vs. the Shach) on supervision a regrettable historic choice, one that has largely deprived many observant Jews of a wide range of excellent cheese at rational prices. In one sense, the fear of intermarriage has kept you from good cheese! (Yes, yes, I know, of course it’s more complicated than that)

about tablet-k
from Dartmouth Independent

The Economics of Observance

Saffra is also, first and foremost, a businessman. He runs the “Tablet-K,” a company specializing in koshering that has landed contracts with respected companies such as Cabot Cheese and Trader Joe’s. In 1998, after a protracted legal battle, Saffra was removed from his post at Rockwood Park Jewish Center because he “was accused of ignoring his synagogue’s needs in favor of his outside business, letting membership dwindle and giving the congregants minimal attention.”

Josh Gajer at Columbia, a former ‘06 and mashgiach (religious supervisor) at the Pavilion, pointed out that “in the world of kosher supervision, this guy doesn’t have exactly a sterling reputation for high standards.” Numerous weblogs and local Orthodox practitioners concurred. One blog called Apikorsus, which is concerned with the intimacies of kashrut, stated that “there are probably legitimate reasons not to trust Tablet-K. Rabbi Saffra, who runs the organization, has a habit of jumping to certify products that others won’t.” A significant number of others doubt the rigor of his work with Cabot.

Additionally, Saffra only visits the Pavilion two to four times per year. For many, this lack of regular supervision is unacceptable. Gajer described the Rabbi’s visits as occurring mainly when the Pavilion was closed, while other sources noted that the Rabbi has seemed to have few, if any, objections to Pavilion practices during his visits. On top of that, many consider the knowledge of the college’s mashgichim, employees expected to supervise day to day kosher practices, severely limited. Lewis Glinert, Professor of Hebraic Studies at Dartmouth, noted that “students working there as mashgichim, both this year and last year have told me that they felt inadequate to the task of dealing with the problems that inevitably arise.”

I have heard of at least one congregational rav on Staten Island, who knows R’ Hazdan, who does not rely on Ner Tamid K.

But come on, do you really a think a small operation in Staten Island can effectively cover a large production line in California? The Star K isn’t certifying much outside of the Eastern Corridor (and China where it has an office); the Vaad of Queens rarely leaves New York City.

If CA-based Amys’s Kitchen were kosher to the normative standards of shomrei halacha Americans, then they would find a local or national certifier instead of dealing with an obscure rabbi in Staten Island.

Here is a nice explanation of what gevinas yisrael/akum is.

I don’t understand why we are not trusting a person who is a strictly observant Rabbi. I called him up on the phone, this the phone number of Ner Tamid K: 718-967-6324. You have to know some halacha and ask him questions, there is no reason to assume he is lying (unless someone has some very strong evidence to the contrary). He was very straighforward about his procedures, the only question is if you disagree from a halachic standpoint with his decisions. I asked him about Pongol, the main issues I asked him about:
1) Bishul Akum - He told me he turned on the pilot light and when the pilot light goes out they call him and he turns it back on. (A pilot light going out is very rare)
2) He said they do not make the cheese and that they bye cheese with hashgacha although he said he does not know which hashgacha.
3) He told me that he trained them how to search for bugs. (The Vaad of Seattle which is accepted by the entire orthodox community (as far as I know- there are always exceptions) uses the same method of training the employees to search for bugs)
4) He told me that he visits the restaurant once a week and it is an un-expected visit.

I think it would be a concern for many that he does not know what brand of cheese they are buying or what haschaga; simply taking their word for it that it is kosher. If you are giving hashcagah to a place you should ensure that all the ingredients meet your standards. Also, I don’t believe that everyone allows non-Jews or even non-observant Jews to check for bugs. I would not say that a place under his supervision is treif, but these are concrete examples of things that not everyone would be comfortable with.

Thanks for linking to the article in the Dartmouth Independent, alyssa. I was a bit upset to see how the quote from my blog was used. I’ve posted a response here.

I just moved to the denver area from israel and saw the “kosher indian” place with this ‘disputed’ hecture.

this is an outrage in am yisrael. I dont have the answers to know if this is ‘kosher’ or not. I will investigate on my own though rather then only rely on Rabbi’s opions.

sadly, our leaders have mutual investments and sometimes themselves ‘jump on board’ to the views/decisions of others. (not even for financial reasons)

but this may or may not negate the possibility that the restaurant is kosher.
it is mostly vegan with only milk used for cheese, as Barbara Schwartz (the local masgiach).
but what concerns me is that she is required to only visit 1 time per week.

with that, i am also cencerned with who is checking for bugs. are they doing this as fearful Jews or as paid workers and non-jews?

i tend to never eat out but my new wife loves to go out once in a while.

My local rabbi(who is also a kosher certifier from a reputable company who shall remain nameless) talked to the rabbi that certifies AMY’s and said DO NOT EAT AMY’s! The reasons he gave are very simple. 1. Amy’s is HUGE and is not supervised often enough in his opinoin to comply with normative halachic standards. My rabbi’s standards are equivalent to the orthodox union standards. We had to re-kasher our toaster-oven and everything after eating AMY’s! Guard your gates well!

I’m curious, did your rabbi TELL to to kasher your equipment or did you just assume. I was under the impression, that unless you are dealing with meat, that products with dubious hashcagah don’t -b’dieved- treif keilim. Maybe your rav holds differently then I was told.

I thought it would be a public service to inform the sincere and Torah observant kosher consumer that Amy’s Kitchen is fully aware that it has a non- accepted Kosher certification by normative Orthodox standards and has no intention of making a change in the near future.

Here is a brief and incomplete synopsis of some of the issues:

1. Amy’s uses cheese in many of its products and the Orthodox position of every reputable agency and the Psak Halakha of the Shulchan Aruch is that all cheese (excluding acid based cheeses) that employ even Microbial rennet require Orthodox supervision in their making. Given the Ner Tamid K’s general reputation it is a cause of deep concern that some or all of the Cheeses that Amy’s employs do not bear a recognized Kosher certification. Cooking vessels that have had direct contact with such a cheese product require kosherization.

2. Cheese is a sensitive ingredient in that their are many non-kosher varieties. When I spoke with Rabbi Hasdan he told me that he visits Amy’s plant 3x a year. This is a ridiculous number of visitations by any reputable Kashrut organization’s standards. There are numerous rabbi’s on the West Coast who could visit the plant once a month or bi- weekly and Amy’s is in a position to afford such fees yet this normative standard which protects the Kosher consumer is disregarded.

3. Amy’s employs Organic Broccoli… and it is known to anyone familiar with Broccoli that is Organic, that it is subject to bugs. Further, it is known that it is as forbidden to eat a bug as it is to eat pig. While I am sure that the Broccoli is washed nonetheless any reputable kashrut company would require strict inspection regimens by an observant Jew to insure that there were no bugs and frankly that this would be cost effective is highly questionable and it would likely be wiser to avoid Organic Broccoli. Even if it was determined to be frozen then one would be relying on a leniency of Rav Moshe Heineman Shlita who he himself and no reputable agency uses on Hashgachas and certainly not for Organic Broccoli. KSA just made the mistake of doing so i.e. of certifying Organic frozen broccoli (without inspections) and they were roasted for it and subsequently pulled the hashgacha from Cascadian Farms on this product.

4. Amy’s is a huge company there are so many ingredients in the variety of entrees and to visit 3x a year such a large company is considered beyond incompetent especially when they acknowledge that they employ non kosher ingredients (red wine vinegar by example) in some of their products. Especially when the company can easily afford higher standards. The issue is that Rabbi Hasdan lives in New York State and is not interested in flying out to the West Coast 2x a month or more and no Lubavitcher Shliach in the area or Field Mashgiach of another agency seeking extra work will come near him because of his poor reputation.

This is just a scratch of the surface. If anyone would like to verify that Ner Tamid K is “not recommended” then there are some very simple ways of doing so:

1. The national agencies OU, OK, Chaf K- with I am told the exception of the Star K and the Chicgao Rabbinical Council will not pass public judgement as they can be sued. But go on the internet and contact the Star K and the Chicago Rabbinical Council or the Rabbinical Council of California.

2. Contact Rabbi Eidlitz of kosherquest.org.

3. Go to the http://www.chabad.org or the http://www.ou.org and do a random sampling of synagogue rabbi’s and they will after looking into it tell you it is an unaccepted or non recommended kosher certification by the vast majority of Orthodoxy.

I wish that I could interpret Amy’s decision as based on ignorance but even if originally that is the case (which it may not be) the fact is that they are trying to reap the marketing benefit of Kosher certification without doing kosher certification in a way that respects those that fear G-d and are sincerely Halakhicly observant and for this they deserve your complaints.

If you would like to complain and make known your disatisfaction with their choice of Kosher certification then their website is http://www.amys.com

The director of marketing is Ms. Christine Pritchard and her email is cpritchard@amyskitchen.net

Amy’s makes great food I am told but anyone who considers themselves Orthodox in any meaningful way has no basis to eat their food and if you wish not to rely on my opinion please consult a local Orthodox rabbi of any variety (Modern Orthodox, Yeshivish or Chasidish) on this matter.

Blessings,

Rabbi:

The observations you make and conclusions drwan from them may have merit which is better than many comments above yours, but is it most unfortunate that your reply is so mean spirited at the close.

I would hope that the interest of building kashrut observence would inspire you rather than breed the attitude your writing conveys.

Indeed, it is this approach which has driven me, amongst otheres, away from many self described orthodox institutions.

Shalom,

I apologize if my words seem mean spirited that is not their intention- I acknowledge them as intense and strong if you could point out what you feel is mean spirited that would be appreciated.

Rabbi meshulam;
Thank you for you comments. It is wonderful to have the facts presented in such a way. I did not feel your comments were in any way mean spirited simply stating the real concerns. sometimes the truth is hard to hear.
TO David;
Rabbi meshulam is my rabbi please see his comments including the reasons and need for koshering my toaster oven.

Rabbi:

Please take this reply as the constructive critique that you invite:

Your use of the term, and those like it, “sincere and Torah observant” followed later in your analysis of reference to Orthodoxy suggests that only those who agree with you are sincere and/or torah observent. This discards those who are sincere in their belief and Torah observent, but disagree - and therefore do not adhere to- rabbinical interpretations of the Torah law.

You state that Amy’s knows that it has selected oversight which is not accepted by sectors of our community but do not set out a basis for this statement. Please accept this invitation to elaborate on your position.

Most disturbing to me though are your closing observations, where you state that Amy’s actions intentionally seek to reap the benefits of accessing the kosher market without doing so in a fashion that you believe “respects those who fear G-d and are sincerely halachikly observent”. I find this mean spirited. Your analysis assumes, without putting forth facts, that Amy’s acts with intent mislead versus an approach on that this oversight is acceptable. Indeed, the Amy’s folks who are Jewish and observent may accept this oversight and utilize it themselves. (I have no idea whether this is accurate, but your assumptions permit this analysis.) Let us not forget that the London Bet Din, and others, suggest acceptance of products which it does not oversee on a constant basis so accpetance of the oversight descibed by you in effect here, even in the self described Orthodox community,unheard of.

But the mean spirited aspect is the inference that those who do not agree with you fail to be G-d fearing and/or are not observent.

A discussion of the factual analysis without these unnecessary descriptions would have still achieved your goal of allowing the blog readers to make an infomed choice. I hope that you take this into consideration next time.

Rabbis:

Correct me if I’m wrong:

1) Many small but well-respected Orthodox brands cannot afford to own their own factories and assembly lines (equipment which is required to process and package their private label foods). So, the hashgacha will go into a non-kosher facility, kasher the entire assembly line, then do a “kosher run” after which the assembly line will resume its non-kosher production. Although I’m sure these rabbis are very thorough, nothing will ever be as perfect as a factory or assemply line which only processes kosher foods. (Besides, there’s always the “1/60th rule.” Which helps reassure the consumer that - even if something was G-dforbid overlooked, it’s still kosher.

Since Amy’s is vegetarian, we know that no meat, fish or shellfish ever touches the assembly lines. This gives Amy’s quite an advantage. As far as ingredients go, read Amy’s labels…it’s very simple - no preservatives, additives, artificial colors, etc. Concerning the many comments about insects, in modern processing plants the washing, rinsing, re-washing process is very effective (certainly more effective than any kosher restaurant, where one can’t stop the occasional ant, fly or even worse from finding its way into your soup.) And then, of course, there’s the 1/60th rule - just in case something may have happened.

Honestly, I would think that Amy’s is perhaps more kosher than some of the hardcore kosher brands I buy due to some of the issues raised above.

Also, as an aside, I find it ironic that Lubavitchers found no reason to question the OK hechsher after the whole PETA fiasco, while many other Orthodox Jews abstained from buying Aaron’s meats during the aftermath. I don’t know one Lubavitcher who stopped buying OK. But if the same thing happened to a different Orthodox hechsher, you can bet you bottom dollar that every Lubavitch would stop buying it. I’m not trying to defend PETA or trash Aaron’s, I’m just trying to point out how political the whole thing can get.

Shalom Harlan,

Thank you for your reply as I am working on about 4hrs sleep and have Rosh Hashanah to prepare for I will try to be concise and to the point.

1.I know for a fact that Amy’s is aware at the highest levels that they have oversight that is unaccepted by the vast majority of informed Orthodoxy because I personally communicated this to the marketing director of Amy’s and have also spoken to a person who I believe is in charge of quality control/certifications.

Originally these individuals were shocked and there is no question that after looking into with their superiors they both came up with the same reply that we have no intention of changing our certification at this point- as well it should be mentioned they were completely unwilling to provide any explanation as to why?

Amy’s was given the exact methodology posted above to verify how their Hechser is seen in Orthodoxy and they either choose to ignore its implications or they ignore the methedology which leads to the implications.

2. After speaking with them and being convinced that they are ignoring the Orthodox community to judge them favorabely I would say that they are non-Jewish or non- Orthodox business people who care more about: health, the environment and money then satisfying a subset of a religious group that they are not identified with nor fully comprehend. As well it can be said that there is politics in the kashrus world and these people are not adept at seperating politics from Halakha.

I think they ultimately understand that most Jews will eat something even without a hechsher, that many that look for one will accept this- indeed conservatives largely will and uninformed Orthodox will and the vegans, muslims etc.. will so why service the Orthodox who would make us make all kinds of changes and cost us 5x what we are paying etc… Perhaps I should be more understanding but I am disappointed in them. There are many companies that feel if you are going to do kosher do it right and they understand with simple sense that generally the Orthodox standards are reasonable and professional.

3. In terms of your critique of my association of sincere and Torah Observant with Orthodox - given the intelligence of your remarks and the distinction you are pointing out it would seem that I am in discussion with an educated Conservative or Reform Jew or clergy.

Obviously, a Jew in some respects can be sincere and Torah observant and not be Orthodox- however from an Orthodox perspective this would person would resemble what is stated in the work of the Kuzari where the intentions are appreciated but not “all” of the actions.

Take Gevinat Akum (even Microbial rennet Cheese made by a non- Jew without Orthodox supervision) and with all due respect for Rabbbeinu Tam

A person who disregards the Psak Halakha of the Shulchan Aruch and knowingly puts more faith in the rabbinical assembley (who permit) then of the (Orthodox) Torah sages of this and prior generations (who forbid) their sincerity is limited in my eyes as they have come to a conclusion that does not reflect what I believe is a correct understanding of faith in the sages, the Halakhic process, nor an understanding of how to righteously navigate the tension between modernity and Halakha. I believe if they were more sincere they would come to a different conclusion.

I have been around and I know the counter arguments and I am not writing this for you but for the readers who will be susceptible to your critique. Ultimately this comes down to faith and I know that what I am saying seems tautological however I believe and it is my experience that in the words of the sages “When someone comes to purify themsleves they are assisted.”

I see Conservative Judaism let alone Reform and the Halakha it follows in a varety of ways as lacking depth and sincerity and not to be Torah observant in the sense that I find meaningful.

Youa re obviously welcome to see me in the same light and we will have to agree to disagree hopefully as mensches.

Shalom True Jew?,

In regards to the issues you raise-

I agree with you that Amy’s is vegetarian and from here that is where we shall part ways.

Your comments express a point of view that is not in harmony with accepted halakha in the following ways. There is a basic distinction between Lechatchilah (ideally) and Bediavad (after the fact). There is also a concept in Halakha of Ain Mevatlin Issur Lechatchilah. (we do not nullify a prohibtion if the prohibition is avoidable)

I do not agree with you that on Organic produce bugs are entirely done away with by modern methods and in facy I believe this to the point where I turned down a vegan organic company over this issue of leafy green vegetables and broccoli etc….

One very related issue is who is fit to verify that the bugs are not there? A relatively low paid worker who is not Jewish nor who has any deep commitment to Torah values? Halakha tries to find a balance and I do not believe Ner Tamid K has this balance. There are compromises that are made in modern food production true- but how far to compromise this judgment should be left in the hands of the greatest sages of our times and those agencies which respect their decisions. That errors occur even within this system - granted but at least these are errors not accpeted norms.

In Torah there is a deep value of looking to be in harmony with the ideal principles not using every loop hole that may serve useful after the fact.

In terms of Peta and Rubashkin I saw the video and thought it was a chilul Hashem- It is not clear that there was a strictly narrowly speaking a Halakhic (Yoreh Deah) issue.

People in teh kashrus world understand just how fallible these agencies are and they are not on the pedestal that lay people hold them on. I am suprised more often then I would like to be by some of the mistakes and judgment calls that I am told of by veteran Kashrus experts.

But make no mistake Ner Tamid K did not receive its reputation for nothing it has been well earned over time.

I read through some of these emails and I must say there is significant amount if misinformation.

The Seattle Vaad Hakashrus who I have had personal dealings with does not rely on the gentile employees alone to check for bugs they make nearly daily visits and do spot inspections of the produce requiring checking. This is not what Ner Tamid K does by any means.

To finally be able to say something liberal!

The person who represents the “Orthodox” position as being strict on everything from Bishul Yisroel to hashgacha on Shabbas I think it is fair to say these standards may reflect the The Chasidisha or very frum Hashgachas but it does not reflect the OU- which I believe is still considered Orthodox.

Rabbi:
Supporting your conclusions with the facts of your investigation illuminates your thought process. Thank you. Reading your subsequent postings, it is clear that you genuinely seek a discourse on these types of issues.

I continue to suggest that the description “sincere” when you are speaking to interpretation/application of Jewish Law is not appropriate particularly since we all agree that Jewish Law has constantly evolved and will continue to do so. Setting aside your apparent inability to accept anyone who identifies as Conservative or Reform, your analysis discards self described Orthodox Jews who reach different conclusions when applying halacha. Do you suggest that followers of the London Beit Din (see above), can not be sincere in their Torah observance.

Further, your suggestion that the Torah Sages were Orthodox is misplaced historically. The Reform/Orthodox/Conservative distinctions are North American creatures which arose in the late 1800’s C.E. not present historically in the Old World nor widely applied outside of the USA/Canada even today.

I can see how you would assume that I am Reform or Conservative from my analysis. I am neither. I actually learned at a modern Orthodox day school followed by Conservative high school and then at several universities here and in Israel at the side of Rabbis and teachers of various affiliations. Further, I worked for kosher restaurants (with readily accepted hashgacha) both here an in Israel which also informs my viewpoints.

Now with that basis, and distaste for many of the political and economic factors of kashrut, I grapple with observance and affiliation. As a foodie who maintains a strictly kosher household (at the specific direction of my beloved wife/live in Kashrut overseer), I am in a constant search for new, high quality products to share with my family and friends wonderful food while being kosher as well. [The only area where this has become a problem is unfortunately cheese.]

Again, I hope that our discourse on this and other issues of Kashrut can continue in a respectful fashion.

Shana Tova

Shalom Harlan,

I am well aware of Modern Jewish History and that Modern Orthodoxy arose in Germany etc.. It is misleadingto deny that the Judaism of the last 2000 years is not in essence in the same spirit an in general in the same kind as that of Orthodoxy in contrast to Reform and even Conservative. Each of these modern traditions insert new heretical ideas or methedologies that were never accepeted at any point in halakhic Judaism especially to reach the far reaching conclusions tha they come to both theologically and halakhically.

There are many who have been burn out by the Kashrus industry but I would not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

In terms of the London Bet Din I am not aware of any specifics I would be interested in knowing how their standards differ from mainstream agencies. I have access to one of the top authorities on kashrut today and could provide a objective critique/observation.

To Rabbi Meshulam:

How do you know (not think, but know) that “Judaism of the last 2000 years” was similar to Orthodoxy? How would you prove that?

Thank you!

Rabbi:
You miss the point. Secular nationalism of the 19th century gave rise to the divisions within our community. Prior to that discourse and development within Jewish law took place and groups sat with either the majority or minority view.

Now though, sectarian separation has caused self described “Orthodox” to reject with open distain developments from other groups with whom disagreements exist. (e.g. there was no need to use the inflamatory word “heretical” in your reply; your point would still have been understood.)

The irony though is that there is also schism within the “orthodox” as well but you only seem to point leftward. I would hope, Rabbi, that you share my desire to redirect our community towards education and observance overall with a tone of inclusion rather than exclusion.

As we get ready to celebrate the birthday of our world, I encourage you to refine what can truly be a positive message.

Shalom Harlan and Jim,

I was and to a limited extent and still a believer in inclusion but it has very limited potential in my experience. Its mostly a marketing tool for the Liberal Orthodox to gain access to non- orthodox Jews who identify with Conservative etc…
Anyone Orthodox by definition is not pluralistic in any de jure sense of the word- its just a question of what is your strategy or perhaps there are some who belive that Jewish unity is the most important value but I think its mostly maneuvering.

In terms of how do I know that Orthodoxy of today is similar to the Judaism of two thousand years ago -read the responsa literature of the last 1000 years and that would be a good place to start.

I am sorry but to focus on the fact that we “disagree” with the Reform is a way of inauthentically representing what actually is.

Pluralism is not the intent and I have no expectation whatsoever that you would change your standards of observance.

Rather, I hope that you would revisit your tone so that you are not so mean spirited. Read my response closely, I suggest that a tone of openenss enables those in the community to engage in education and perhaps observance.

It is percisely the mean spirited tone that has driven many - including me - from the community of self described orthodox jews.

Responsa literature represents a very thin slice of Jewish practice and experience. To think that “Judaism” was only like today’s Orthodoxy falls under the very common misconception known as “historical fallacy” - which believes that what “is” today is what always was. Sorry, but the Orthodox Judaism of today is not the only way Jews “did” Judaism over the centuries.

Being pluralistic is not about pretending to agree just so that we can have “unity” or gently convince someone to be like us. Pluralism is about being humble enough to say, “perhaps there are other legitimate ways to reach God.”

Lest you reply that pluralism means “no community standards” let me add that of course there need to be agreed upon standards so that people can co-exist. The question is whether people are humble enough to say publicly that other people’s choices are legitimate. To say “we will eat only O-U in this community building so everyone will be comfortable” is fine. But to say “Rabbi X doesn’t follow our way of defining Kosher so he is unacceptable” is not. Let learned people disagree and make decisions based on knowledge…and humility.

Jim,

Orthodoxy is not humble in the way you would like. We can understand why people make the choices they make, we can politely disagree but in the end Orthdodoxy will always deeply reject as completely illegitimate everything from homosexuality, gay marriage, women being counted for a minyan, women leading davening for men, non Orthodox conversions and I could go on. It is not that we do not recognize that reform or conservative clergy are not scholars- they very often are at the highest levels- they are as well heretical- I am sorry if that words rings medieval.

If you would be so kind to read a few hundred responsa try to for the last 100 years each you woould see that Judaism has had a common core whether it is in ritual life, holidays, marriage. Obvious there are differences between the Messinaic issues of today and those of the Rambam or the Science or of the politics etc.. but the Rambam and the way the Torah was being lived is infinitely closer to Orthodoxy today then any expression of liberal Judaism.

In terms of Kosher there are a lot of agencies who accept eachother when they do not accept Ner Tamid K on a near universal basis it is because of his policies and his history not just because of politics or lack of pluralism.

Judaism has Shammai and Hillel and there is a place for both.

Rabbi Meshulam,

You aren’t being sincere by mentioning Hillel and Shammai. Does this include Reform and Conservative?

Since you mentioned them, do you know why Shammai and Hillel’s children married one another. Because they had enough of a “common core” (as you would call it) yet they could tolerate legimitate differences. Do you really believe Conservative Rabbis (not clergy, but Rabbis - be nice!) are heretical? Do you not see that there is a “common core” between you and them? Don’t you see that you differ on only a few items (that are within a rather narrow range considering just how wide a range is possible)? You too easily reject differences as a threat or “proof” of heresy.

The Judaism described in the T’shuvot literature was not practiced uniformally, nor did those practices exist in those exact forms from time immemorial. You see, when you have scholars who actually track the development (a dangerous word for Orthodoxy)of Judaism you find that (a) our people managed to deal with more variety than you describe, and (b) people who are quick to label others as heretics are usually responding out of fear (assimilation, etc.).

Put another way,and I say this with respect, I think there’s a place for your kind of Judaism as well.

Rabbi Meshulam,

I wanted to thank you for contributing your informed opinion to the matter. I find that many Orthodox Rabbis like to hem and haw around issues of kashrut, including the non-comments on others.

That said, I think you should really take to heart some of the comments in this thread about being “mean spirited.” I grew up in a Reform synagogue, my wife in a conservative one, and we have been attending Orthodox synagogues for three years, Shomer Shabbos for two, and Kosher to her family’s level and increasing from there for three years.

Attitudes like you conveyed have been that part that makes it most difficult for Ba’al Teshuvah Jews to feel welcome in the community. Whatever religious differences that I hold with my parents, in-laws, and childhood friends, I still consider them family and friends, and calling them heretics in a public forum is a bit uncomfortable.

The shear animosity towards both Orthodox and traditional Judaism (and factually MANY stringency’s that are now common, like Glatt, are relatively recent - last few hundred years - developments) from non-halachic Judaism is appalling, I shudder when I hear slurs from people that don’t know better, and realize that I once said such things.

That said, up until a Rosh Hoshana with Aish a few years back, my experience with Orthodox Rabbis was all extremely negative, mean spirited, and intolerant. Tolerance requires accepting that Jews of other stripes are largely misinformed and misled by those claiming credentials, and there is no reason to right them all off… my community is filled with Orthodox converts, recently observant, and Yeshiva educated individuals, yet we all walk around on Saturday afternoon and say Good Shabbos to each other, and its a wonderful inviting experience, that has made my family feel welcome in our community when visiting.

I am not suggesting that you should accept their rulings or conversions as legitimate, but I’m suggesting that you should be more polite in the handling of some of these issues. During our path to observance, one or two attitudes like you conveyed here have nearly knocked my wife and I off track and nearly derailed our path.

Tolerance doesn’t mean agreeing, but to the newly observant, it is much easier to disagree with your parents and their religious leaders than to simply call them heretics, especially given our daily prayers for the destruction of the heretics. I may disagree with my parents on MANY matters, but I hardly feel that I pray three times a day for their destruction.

Please, continue maintaining strict observance and making sure that we do not vary from the path, but try to be more welcoming and less snide towards those that are not here yet. Remember, the seeds of our destruction have historically been influenced my our secular brothers and sisters, so I think that holding back handing them ammunition might be a prudent course of action.

Rabbi, again, I appreciate and respect what you have said in this forum. However, I think that your word choice and tone has been counter-productive to what you are trying to accomplish.

After having read this entire string and particularly the last third concerning Rabbi Meshulam’s tone and the steadfastness of his positions. Well, you can’t be “half pregnant” and likewise, you can’t be “half kosher.” What one chooses to observe or not observe in Judaisim is *your* personal choice. But when representing whether something meets or does not meet the kashrus standards set forth in Torah is, is something which affects the entirety of the Jewish people irrespective their level of observancy. Therefore, when it comes to defining kosher, the most “inclusive” standard is, by necessity, the strictest standard. Anything less, and you exclude portions of our People…!

Thus, when an “orthodox” Rabbi flatly declares something is not kosher when the mfr. holds it out to be otherwise, he is not being “insensitive” or “intolerant” he is merely acting al pi halacha. That is, refusing to “look the other way” and compromise standards.

So, go ahead and compromise on your own Judaism–just please do not compromise mine!

where do we stand? lehatchilah, Amy’s assur. be shaa dechak…meaning business travel to the middle of nowhere…mutar.

bedeved…no chatas.

Thoughts?

Regarding Amy’s Hechsher. My Rabbi investigated The Ner Tamid agency.He repotst that is reliable.Our rabbi is exceedingly rigorous in his kashrut. I can only wonder about the motives behind some of the above discussants.

The motives are different standards. If your Rabbi said that Ner Tamid K is OK to eat, great, go ahead and eat it. I asked my Rabbi and he said no. I really don’t believe he was motivated by politics, money, or jealousy; according to HIS understanding of kashrus issues it is not acceptable, and I will abide by his ruling, just as you abide by your Rav’s.

I would be shocked if politics played a role in Kashrut oversight.

Felt like defending the Rabbi…

//That said, up until a Rosh Hoshana with Aish a few years back, my experience with Orthodox Rabbis was all extremely negative, mean spirited, and intolerant. Tolerance requires accepting that Jews of other stripes are largely misinformed and misled by those claiming credentials, and there is no reason to right them all off… my community is filled with Orthodox converts, recently observant, and Yeshiva educated individuals, yet we all walk around on Saturday afternoon and say Good Shabbos to each other, and its a wonderful inviting experience, that has made my family feel welcome in our community when visiting.//

First off, I totally agree with this sentiment, but feel the Rabbi wasn’t doing what you think. (note: Just look at who is getting serious increases in shul turnouts Chabad and places like Aish which open up to everybody.) As a baal-teshuvah, I never was treated negatively per se, but I do know it happens. The Orthodox Community, each of its groups, is obviously not perfect, not made of all saintly indiviuals, but come on even in the desert there were many arguing and acting un-mensch like.

Saying that, the word heretical might be too non-PC, but it is only one word amongst the many the Rabbi used… Because I feel the main arguments above against his points were based on the lack of liking of this word… If you look at dictionary.com, heretical means two things
1) Of or relating to heresy or heretics. (didn’t know that :))
2) Characterized by, revealing, or approaching departure from established beliefs or standards. (ah that sounds good, but that is too long thus I’ll make up the word goober to replace heretical.)

The difference between Orthodox and Non-Orthodox is based on one thing, halachic decision making. Orthodox believe in following tradition and thus laws (modern orthodox might choose the lenient opinion, others the strict, but still all opinions based on purely passed down halacha and customs) and using the laws to come up with ways of tackling new situations. The non-Orthodox do this too (base on tradition, law), but also use other methods and sources to come to a conclusion. Take for example, Rambam. Rambam was a renaissance man, a reader of philosophy, a man with serious doubts (as we all have or will have at one point in life) about creation, the creator etc that he faced. Rambam is often cited by the non-Orthdox as an example of openness, inclusiveness etc. But, ever look at his laws on Pesach and see a quote from Aristotle or any non-Talmudic, Halachic source like the American Constitution (yet in his time, I don’t know maybe the Moorish Treaty or whatever). His philosophical work surely takes on Artistotle and others from non-Jewish perspectives, and might even seriously consider a non-”Jewish” point (ie scientific) legitmate…but not in Jewish laws or actions.

To give an example of the non-orthodox thought process, The Conservative and Reform movement used such ideas as American inclusiveness, secular civil rights, and modern feminism to allow women to fulfill roles never assigned to them in the past Jewishly. They did not take only views (even “liberal” or disdained ones) from the Shulchan Aruch or any other ancient source, but instead used Judaism (there are things like argument about gender mitzvah obligations in Judaism that have disagreements) mixed with other stuff, goober-like. This is just blatantly not the standard of the past…

If anyone wants to find the gemara were Rabbi so-and-so quotes Roman Law or Rambam states based on Freedom of Religion in Spain, we can do so and so or act like this and that then consider me wrong…but if one looks at the strong dislike against groups like the Saducees (influenced heavily by surround society by the way) and other goobers in Talmud and past times, one can see the view of the current Orthodox as the same as the past Rabbis. Not to say there are no politics, no unfair crticisms…we are Jews mind you. But come on a phrase in the Torah can decide only so many halachas. Treat your fellow like yourself is not a legitmate reason to allow gay marriage or easier conversations as well as allowing relaxed kashrut standards. Orthodox bring out the books, bring out the sources…this is why I am now an Orthodox Jew. Because Orthodoxy gives you a source and talks about it, you might disagree but its out there. If the above, can give proof why one should not be so mean in talking about opinions that deny certain laws or take goober opinions then please do… I don’t want to sound mean, really I don’t, but everyone has their personal down falls… the key is the information they state. If its true, tone is not going to change that. Trying to cover with rhetoric like “you know that one orthodox group throws rocks”, so all are bad has to me personally become tiring.

Again don’t want to offend, felt the Rabbi was being portrayed unfairly…
Also I was rush when writing the above so please forgive my terrible editting skills and certain instances of sarcasm…for that I apologize and really mean no offense…

Daniel,

Nice try, but your arguments don’t hold water.

Do a little reading (Alon, Urbach, Lieberman) or an actual page of Talmud and you’ll see the Rabbis were very aware and open to culture and ideas around them. It was how they filtered this input that made them special. So too with Conservative Rabbis. They’re just more open about it than many Orthodox Rabbis.

Finally, your comment about the “never done before” quoting from outside sources in Jewish legal opinions: do you really think Conservative Rabbis look up, say, British Common Law and say, “Aha, that’s what we should do!…then quote those laws in their legal writings?! Again, so some more reading…

Just because Conservative Rabbis come to different conclusions (some of which just happen to be more lenient), don’t assume they don’t know what they’re doing or that they doing something different from Talmudic Rabbis.

If you want to be Orthodox, go for it. Just do it based on sound reasons, not mishegos people have been feeding you.

Good luck!

“Finally, your comment about the “never done before” quoting from outside sources in Jewish legal opinions: do you really think Conservative Rabbis look up, say, British Common Law and say, “Aha, that’s what we should do!…then quote those laws in their legal writings?! Again, so some more reading…”

I don’t know about British Law, but this concept is true Jim. For example, the Reform Movement likely formed due top the Protestant Movement of Christianity (the conservative movement then forming from the Reform movement). Also, where did the Conservative Rabbis find Woman Rabbis or (as some now think) Gay Marriage in previous halacha? Show me the source. I can find those things in the latest ACLU newsletter or various other secular documents… Jim, seriously, do you think recent views of the Conservative Movement are not largely effected by its members political and non-Jewish beliefs…I was not there nor believe anyone should make lasting conclusions from this statement…but I think the original view of Woman Rabbis being in line with halacha was nixed by JTS’s Rabbis then given over to the entire staff. The staff then okayed the idea. This idea of passing laws to non-studied indiviuals goes along with Conservative and other non-Orthodox movements changing how Judaism has been practiced.

“Do a little reading (Alon, Urbach, Lieberman) or an actual page of Talmud and you’ll see the Rabbis were very aware and open to culture and ideas around them. It was how they filtered this input that made them special. So too with Conservative Rabbis. They’re just more open about it than many Orthodox Rabbis.”

Uh, what? I have looked at Talmud pages and have never seen remarks on secular or non-Jewish ideas being anywhere near Torah concepts. Again please source were outside thought made the Talmudic and Mishnaic Sages seriously alter practice. The Sages make comments clearly anti-Roman, anti-Idoltary, anti-Saduccee, anti-Cuthean, etc. Not to mention, the Sages were not in support of acting like gentiles…again, Jim or anyone, show a source. Being fully integrated into the non-Jewish culture is a new concept based on diversity and multiculturalism (both derived from non-Jewish movements and writings.)
Also regarding Alon (relgious zionist?), Urbach (a professor?), and Lieberman (the senator?)…what do you mean by listing them? I don’t want to say anything unwarranted because I haven’t read or done any research on these people. What’s your point though? Sidenote not meaning to address the listed of whom I am not sure of their relevalence or views: I don’t believe claiming you are orthodox though effects the traditional way of Judaism…I mean there is an orthodox ordained rabbi (in Trembling before G-d) that is gay and is orthodox…he is ok with homosexuality. I think some orthodox and even conservative rabbis would fine that against the ways of traiditional Judaism. Many “Rabbis” in the Talmud are admonished for acting improperly…doesn’t make it right.
Please again explain why I am wrong.

I respect and thank you for your reply Jim. No offense should be taken by my statements or previous ones. I just have a certain of understanding of the situation. I am more than open to have my opinions challenged.

You know what’s great about these Conservative/Orthodox/Whateveradox you’re-a-heretic-no-you’re-a-heretic “debates?”

I think it’s that they never get tiresome… no matter on how many different postings these threads appear.

Daniel,

There are so many comments in your posting that I can’t deal with all of them. It seems to me, though, that they have something in common - something that is very common among people who are strongly denominatinal - and that is lack of exposure to serious writing about topics by scholars from another denomination. Your assumptions that Conservative law is made up to fit people’s current “wish list” and your demand for “sources, sources, sources” will be tested by reading the following scholars.

The ones I mentioned are Gedalyahu Alon, Ephraim Urbach, and Saul Lieberman. They were world class scholars who wrote beautifully (without trying to push Reform, Conservative or Orthodox agendas)about the world of the Rabbis in the Talmud.

If you’d like to know how Jewish Law worked (as a legal system) I’d recommend Menachem Elon, as well as Elliot Dorff or Joel Roth (the last two represent the Conservative views quite well and deal with issues of how and when other legal systems influenced development in Jewish Law).

Last but not least, please don’t fall into the “historic fallacy” which implies that what “is” has always been this way. Some parts of the Orthodox approach are relatively new to Jewish life. The attitude towards Jewish Law among the right wing of Orthodox would not be recognizable to the Rabbis of the Talmud.

Good luck!

I’ll take Howard’s advice and stop from debating on thread for lasaugne.

This is it for me: The people you listed, Jeff, are not in the Talmud nor did they know the Talmudists personally. I like to study the actual text, and see what the people said. In the text, I never saw mention of non-Jewish sources nor views that openly defied Torah laws. For example gay marriage which member(s) of the listed support…
People like the Rambam, Rashi, Tosafot etc. went through all the Talmud and made comments. They went thru as well the written torah too. It is not the status quo (if it occurs at all) to do the same at Reform and Conservative Seminaries even amongst the creme de la creme…thus I go with people who know the text knowing full well many customs are new customs I follow, but the law is still the law. That’s why I left the Conservative Movement and became Orthodox because even the Talmudic scholars of the Conservative’s helm appeared equally interested and knowledgeable on movies and music from their childhood than on Judaism.
Good Luck to you Jim, and I hope to enjoy universially accepted hecshered Amy’s pizza with you and Moshiach soon enough. :-)

Daniel:Clearly you havent read the quoted authors nor are your well versed in so called “Orthodox” responsa. The reality is that over centuries Rabbis has incorporated contemporary knowledge into the development of Jewish law and indeed it is only in recent times that we have seen a dogmatic demand to develop the the extreme rather than accomodate development. Thus while some “orthodox” rabbis have encouraged female clergy (Not rabbis), permited shabbat elevators and telephones and even abortion (in limited ciurcumstance) the current trend of American “orthodoxy” seems to trend toward the extreme.

Finally, as I suspect you do not personally know the scholars identified by Jim, your smear is an unfounded personal attack rather than a learned discourse of what could be honorable differences. I have the honor of knowing some of the quoted persons, and suggest to you that your wrong. At the same time, I know “Orthdox” scholars whose willingness to find support for modern life in the primary sources makes me contemplate an “orthodox” lifestyle: Then people who are mean spirited and intolerant come along and I revert to my quite learned, secular lifestyle having left both the Conservative and Orthodox sects.

I just wanted to note I purposely stated I was unaware of the writers listed by Jim, and my comments were not directed at them.

I am also well aware Jews live in a world with non-Jews and are influenced by them including in the times of the Talmud, prior and after too. But nonetheless, I see our tradition takes only what works within Judaism (medical progress etc.) not ideas that are contrary to mitzvas given by Hashem (gay marriage etc.)

I am saddened that I offended you Harlan. I did not mean to especially since you didn’t understand what I meant. I am not an expert, so I apologize if I came across as thinking I am. I was simply questioning the harshness by some against the Rabbi (see above)…

On your examples though, women clergy- what do you mean, I don’t understand what role you are discussing. Nonetheless, outside of shul women do play large roles in communal life. Many Orthodox organizations have high ranking women running them or helping to run them. I also believe “extremists” allow for Shabbos elevators. I had a relative who stayed in Boro Park in a hotel with one run by Hasids…as for Shabbos telephones, I never heard they existed. Obviously telephones are ok in emergencies, and there is some question on their legality…but I am open to see what source you have for that. As for abortions, the more I look into Judaism’s view, the more confused I get. For a long time, the discussion has been diverse and complex amongst deciders of halacha…but it is not modern to allow abortion in certain situations (mother’s life, also to some for those (fetuses) who will become mamzers, to fewer fetuses with serious disease etc).

I will stop now because I said I wouldn’t comment…but Harlan made me feel in need to post. I think Modern Life is fine Harlan, but some of it is just not positive. I find those who try as a main goal in life to be as much a part of modern life as possible (while being observant) open themselves to a lot tough situations. I also note it is not good to totally isolate oneself.

Modern life is something that must be dealt with great care because everything (take for example the internet) has the potential to do good or bad.

I just called Pongal one of the restaurants Rabbi Hazdan supervises. They told me he visits the restaurant 2 or 3 times a week. They also told me that all the cheese is made by the chefs in the store (they could not tell me what kind of cheese they make nor what process they use to make the cheese - the manager would not let me speak with a chef). The manager was getting somewhat inpatient with me (I do not blame him b/c I was asking a lot of questions). He did not understand what I was asking him when I asked how he makes sure the vegetables contain no bugs. He said that they follow all the instructions the Rabbi gave them