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	<title>Comments on: OU to request changes at AgriProcessors</title>
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	<link>http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/12/04/ou_to_request_changes_at_agriprocessors/</link>
	<description>Finding the finer side of everyday kosher living</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 23:26:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/12/04/ou_to_request_changes_at_agriprocessors/#comment-104</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jun 2005 02:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/12/04/ou_to_request_changes_at_agriprocessors/#comment-104</guid>
		<description>The fact that it took PETA's undercover investigation  to affect change reflects the true state of affairs at the OU. Anyone who sees the video cannot accept this level of kashrut because of the profound violation of t'zaar baaley chayim. All their supervision is now suspect because they either looked the other way because of they money, don't know anything about proper shchita with regard for t'zaar baaley chayim or they never looked at all, letting the fox (Rubashkin) run the henhouse. When it comes to money, proper shechitah practices go by the wayside. I knew a shochet at a famous OU supervised chicken slaughterhouse and he told me the pressure was so high on speed that blades were never checked between cuts. If you follow their money it leads directly to gehenom. Why should we follow. If anyone know of a truly humane kosher slaughterhouse PLEASE let me know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The fact that it took PETA&#8217;s undercover investigation  to affect change reflects the true state of affairs at the OU. Anyone who sees the video cannot accept this level of kashrut because of the profound violation of t&#8217;zaar baaley chayim. All their supervision is now suspect because they either looked the other way because of they money, don&#8217;t know anything about proper shchita with regard for t&#8217;zaar baaley chayim or they never looked at all, letting the fox (Rubashkin) run the henhouse. When it comes to money, proper shechitah practices go by the wayside. I knew a shochet at a famous OU supervised chicken slaughterhouse and he told me the pressure was so high on speed that blades were never checked between cuts. If you follow their money it leads directly to gehenom. Why should we follow. If anyone know of a truly humane kosher slaughterhouse PLEASE let me know.</p>
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		<title>By: Howie</title>
		<link>http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/12/04/ou_to_request_changes_at_agriprocessors/#comment-103</link>
		<dc:creator>Howie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Dec 2004 11:20:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/12/04/ou_to_request_changes_at_agriprocessors/#comment-103</guid>
		<description>I've been actively following this issue since it's come out, and have been dialoguing via e-mail with many people on both sides.  Firstly, let me say that I am not vegetarian/vegan and not a fan of PETA, I only eat glatt meat, and that now, even if Rubashkin changes its practices, will still be looking for a different source for that meat.

While I'm not an expert on halachah, I've been told that even the Gemara discusses the "dead animal walking" issue, and describes instances where the animal gets downright out of control.  My concerns center around the inverted shechita and the "trachea pull".

As I've been told, the rabbinical point of view is that flipping the animal on its back is for two reasons: first, it disorients the animal so that it becomes less aware of what will be happening, and second, and most important, to insure that the halachah regarding undue pressure during the cut is not violated, which would render the meat treif.  I contend, however, that the disorientation caused by being flipped on its back results in an adrenaline rush that would have just the opposite effect ... making the animal more aware, and also causing a delay in insentience, since the head would be bleeding out more slowly without the benefit of gravity.  Unfortunately, the relatively painless shechita (done in one stroke with a very long, very sharp knife that is checked after each cut to insure there are/were no nicks) is offset by a worker yanking out the animal's trachea, which would definitely cause pain if there was any bit of sentience in the animal, as it involves tearing rather than cutting.  My nephew, a rabbinical graduate of YU, does not remember any references to "trachea pulls" when he studied Hil. Shechita.  I posit that, given a halachic ruling that the animal is considered dead when the cut is made and blood issues from the wound, this was something added by Rubashkin to increase productivity in some way down the line.  However, if, as I contend, the animal is sentient at that time, the "trachea pull" is most assuredly cruel and should be banned.

Dr. Grandin's website outlines more humane methods of performing shechita than those done in the U.S.  Note also that when animals are "shech'ed" specifically for a seudah (as happens often in Eretz Yisrael), they are being held and are standing upright (although, for the most part, they are usually sheep/lamb, which are smaller animals who, according to Dr. Grandin, are insentient within 15 seconds, much faster than larger animals).

Reading over the five recommendations of the surprisingly respectful PETA letter to the OU, there is nothing that is unworkable.  It will be interesting to see how this all plays out, though.

Hear is a link to an interesting treatise by Dr. Grandin and an associate.  It's a very good read.

http://www.grandin.com/ritual/kosher.slaugh.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been actively following this issue since it&#8217;s come out, and have been dialoguing via e-mail with many people on both sides.  Firstly, let me say that I am not vegetarian/vegan and not a fan of PETA, I only eat glatt meat, and that now, even if Rubashkin changes its practices, will still be looking for a different source for that meat.</p>
<p>While I&#8217;m not an expert on halachah, I&#8217;ve been told that even the Gemara discusses the &#8220;dead animal walking&#8221; issue, and describes instances where the animal gets downright out of control.  My concerns center around the inverted shechita and the &#8220;trachea pull&#8221;.</p>
<p>As I&#8217;ve been told, the rabbinical point of view is that flipping the animal on its back is for two reasons: first, it disorients the animal so that it becomes less aware of what will be happening, and second, and most important, to insure that the halachah regarding undue pressure during the cut is not violated, which would render the meat treif.  I contend, however, that the disorientation caused by being flipped on its back results in an adrenaline rush that would have just the opposite effect &#8230; making the animal more aware, and also causing a delay in insentience, since the head would be bleeding out more slowly without the benefit of gravity.  Unfortunately, the relatively painless shechita (done in one stroke with a very long, very sharp knife that is checked after each cut to insure there are/were no nicks) is offset by a worker yanking out the animal&#8217;s trachea, which would definitely cause pain if there was any bit of sentience in the animal, as it involves tearing rather than cutting.  My nephew, a rabbinical graduate of YU, does not remember any references to &#8220;trachea pulls&#8221; when he studied Hil. Shechita.  I posit that, given a halachic ruling that the animal is considered dead when the cut is made and blood issues from the wound, this was something added by Rubashkin to increase productivity in some way down the line.  However, if, as I contend, the animal is sentient at that time, the &#8220;trachea pull&#8221; is most assuredly cruel and should be banned.</p>
<p>Dr. Grandin&#8217;s website outlines more humane methods of performing shechita than those done in the U.S.  Note also that when animals are &#8220;shech&#8217;ed&#8221; specifically for a seudah (as happens often in Eretz Yisrael), they are being held and are standing upright (although, for the most part, they are usually sheep/lamb, which are smaller animals who, according to Dr. Grandin, are insentient within 15 seconds, much faster than larger animals).</p>
<p>Reading over the five recommendations of the surprisingly respectful PETA letter to the OU, there is nothing that is unworkable.  It will be interesting to see how this all plays out, though.</p>
<p>Hear is a link to an interesting treatise by Dr. Grandin and an associate.  It&#8217;s a very good read.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.grandin.com/ritual/kosher.slaugh.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.grandin.com/ritual/kosher.slaugh.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: CT Kosher Ben Noach</title>
		<link>http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/12/04/ou_to_request_changes_at_agriprocessors/#comment-102</link>
		<dc:creator>CT Kosher Ben Noach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Dec 2004 03:34:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/12/04/ou_to_request_changes_at_agriprocessors/#comment-102</guid>
		<description>It's good that OU is starting to take the situation seriously - my comfort with OU is not what is once was first due to the Zalman's/Star-K fight and now this issue.  I listened to the streaming radio interview, however, and it was hard not to throw my speakers across the room listening to the mocking attitude of the "interviewer" and to a lesser extent the OU people.  Lets hope that the OU will realize that this issue isn't about PETA, this is about non-kosher schita at a plant they supervise!  Could it hurt to carefully consider the recommendations in the PETA letter, and also to get an expert in modern best-practice kosher slaughter such as Temple Grandin involved?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s good that OU is starting to take the situation seriously - my comfort with OU is not what is once was first due to the Zalman&#8217;s/Star-K fight and now this issue.  I listened to the streaming radio interview, however, and it was hard not to throw my speakers across the room listening to the mocking attitude of the &#8220;interviewer&#8221; and to a lesser extent the OU people.  Lets hope that the OU will realize that this issue isn&#8217;t about PETA, this is about non-kosher schita at a plant they supervise!  Could it hurt to carefully consider the recommendations in the PETA letter, and also to get an expert in modern best-practice kosher slaughter such as Temple Grandin involved?</p>
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