Comments on: Vegetarian Terrorists Attack Kosher Giant http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/12/02/vegetarian_terrorists_attack_kosher_gian/ Finding the finer side of everyday kosher living Wed, 19 Nov 2008 12:06:08 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: Lawrence http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/12/02/vegetarian_terrorists_attack_kosher_gian/#comment-303 Lawrence Wed, 08 Dec 2004 05:41:16 +0000 http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/12/02/vegetarian_terrorists_attack_kosher_gian/#comment-303 Janet: I'm afraid I have to take issue with your suggestion that the Jewish community endorses the practices pictured in PETA's video. I have not encountered a single Jewish voice in favor of what is depicted, and I sincerely doubt that you will, either. The point of contention is not whether or not the video shows us something we want to see, but whether or not what it shows us is indicative of day-to-day operations at the Postville facility. The source of the video is an organization that is, to put it mildly, somewhat extreme in its views and methodology. Aside from its general vegan platform, PETA has a well-known agenda against kosher slaughter, despite the fact that <i>impartial</i> studies repeatedly show it to be as humane as other industrial methods, if not more so. (Studies commissioned to discredit kosher slaughter don't usually show it in such a positive light, of course.) The short of it is that people question the video's message for the same reason they question political campaign ads. It is not an unbiased, in-case-you-were-wondering information source, but a piece of propaganda assembled with the intent of changing someone's opinion. If an internal investigation shows the video's claims to be valid, changes will be made. Even were it not for concerns over the suffering of animals, none of the parties in question can afford for Postville meat to be declared non-kosher. Janet:

I’m afraid I have to take issue with your suggestion that the Jewish community endorses the practices pictured in PETA’s video. I have not encountered a single Jewish voice in favor of what is depicted, and I sincerely doubt that you will, either.

The point of contention is not whether or not the video shows us something we want to see, but whether or not what it shows us is indicative of day-to-day operations at the Postville facility. The source of the video is an organization that is, to put it mildly, somewhat extreme in its views and methodology. Aside from its general vegan platform, PETA has a well-known agenda against kosher slaughter, despite the fact that impartial studies repeatedly show it to be as humane as other industrial methods, if not more so. (Studies commissioned to discredit kosher slaughter don’t usually show it in such a positive light, of course.)

The short of it is that people question the video’s message for the same reason they question political campaign ads. It is not an unbiased, in-case-you-were-wondering information source, but a piece of propaganda assembled with the intent of changing someone’s opinion.

If an internal investigation shows the video’s claims to be valid, changes will be made. Even were it not for concerns over the suffering of animals, none of the parties in question can afford for Postville meat to be declared non-kosher.

]]> By: D. Silverman http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/12/02/vegetarian_terrorists_attack_kosher_gian/#comment-302 D. Silverman Tue, 07 Dec 2004 07:58:55 +0000 http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/12/02/vegetarian_terrorists_attack_kosher_gian/#comment-302 Hi - Putting the suffering of the animals aside for a moment (and I'm not so sure we can do that....)from what I understand - the problem that's visible on the video is that a second person is tearing the esophagus & trachea out of the animal AFTER the shochet has done his cut...and before the animal stops moving/ dies. My understanding is that Halachically no one is permitted to touch the animal after the Shochet cuts until the animal stops moving/ has died.....Being that Agriprocessors has multiple Hashgachot supervising their facility, we should assume that the procedure was endorsed by Rabbonim....but, as this controversy so clearly has illuminated, there are obviously important opinions that would never allow such a thing - Rav Yosef Ovadia - Chief Rabbi of Israel, the British Rabbinate....My father, who was born in Germany, has much experience observing cows shecheted in Europe (No, he in not a Rav) since his father was a butcher....when he heard that a second person touches the animal he was quite upset.....the meat would not have been considered kosher back in the "old days" in Europe....food for thought... Debbi S. Hi -

Putting the suffering of the animals aside for a moment (and I’m not so sure we can do that….)from what I understand - the problem that’s visible on the video is that a second person is tearing the esophagus & trachea out of the animal AFTER the shochet has done his cut…and before the animal stops moving/ dies. My understanding is that Halachically no one is permitted to touch the animal after the Shochet cuts until the animal stops moving/ has died…..Being that Agriprocessors has multiple Hashgachot supervising their facility, we should assume that the procedure was endorsed by Rabbonim….but, as this controversy so clearly has illuminated, there are obviously important opinions that would never allow such a thing - Rav Yosef Ovadia - Chief Rabbi of Israel, the British Rabbinate….My father, who was born in Germany, has much experience observing cows shecheted in Europe (No, he in not a Rav) since his father was a butcher….when he heard that a second person touches the animal he was quite upset…..the meat would not have been considered kosher back in the “old days” in Europe….food for thought…

Debbi S.

]]> By: Janet Johnson http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/12/02/vegetarian_terrorists_attack_kosher_gian/#comment-301 Janet Johnson Fri, 03 Dec 2004 19:03:31 +0000 http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/12/02/vegetarian_terrorists_attack_kosher_gian/#comment-301 I am not Jewish, although I greatly respect the Jewish faith. I also greatly respect the lives of animals. I grew up in a farming community and was able to visit a pet cow regularly. Her name was Lapis, and when I was 6 years old, I would go to see her- give her apples, carrots, sugar cubes, etc... She was clearly excited when I came. Even if I didn't have food, she would nuzzle up to me. I truly believe this animal had a soul- much as I believe my dogs and cats have souls. Cattle have at least the intelligence of dogs, if not more. I find it very disturbing that the Jewish community would endorse such cruel treatment of animals as what goes on at AgriProcessors. Frankly, it made me sick. God does not advocate abusing the earth or his animals- which is unfortunately the case at AgriProcessors. Not only are they treating God's creatures abominably, but they are polluting our water as well. I hope you will take a stand and tell processors that this is completely unacceptable. Sincerely, Janet I am not Jewish, although I greatly respect the Jewish faith.

I also greatly respect the lives of animals. I grew up in a farming community and was able to visit a pet cow regularly. Her name was Lapis, and when I was 6 years old, I would go to see her- give her apples, carrots, sugar cubes, etc… She was clearly excited when I came. Even if I didn’t have food, she would nuzzle up to me.

I truly believe this animal had a soul- much as I believe my dogs and cats have souls. Cattle have at least the intelligence of dogs, if not more. I find it very disturbing that the Jewish community would endorse such cruel treatment of animals as what goes on at AgriProcessors.

Frankly, it made me sick.

God does not advocate abusing the earth or his animals- which is unfortunately the case at AgriProcessors. Not only are they treating God’s creatures abominably, but they are polluting our water as well.

I hope you will take a stand and tell processors that this is completely unacceptable.

Sincerely,

Janet

]]> By: Nathan http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/12/02/vegetarian_terrorists_attack_kosher_gian/#comment-300 Nathan Fri, 03 Dec 2004 15:49:59 +0000 http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/12/02/vegetarian_terrorists_attack_kosher_gian/#comment-300 The problems caused by this video and report will go far beyond impacting the Rubashkins; it will be used against kosher slaughter practices around the world, even if other slaughter is performed well and kosher. One can choose not to accept and support the practices of Rubashkins; don't purchase their products. One can go further still, if the video and reports are accurate, and publically distance oneself from Rubashkins. Already, we see those in the rabbinate with courage doing exactly those two things. I have had friends in the Chabad community for several years now. My family has learned with them in school and shul, and they have in general been warm and caring. However, I haven't hesitated to take them to task for the "Rebbe Issue", and I won't hesitiate to take them to task for the Rubashkins issue. The more of us that do so, the harder it will be for them to not make changes. "Ethical Kosher" is not just some left-wing concept; those Rubashkins cows are treif, plain and simple. bShalom, -Nathan The problems caused by this video and report will go far beyond impacting the Rubashkins; it will be used against kosher slaughter practices around the world, even if other slaughter is performed well and kosher.

One can choose not to accept and support the practices of Rubashkins; don’t purchase their products. One can go further still, if the video and reports are accurate, and publically distance oneself from Rubashkins. Already, we see those in the rabbinate with courage doing exactly those two things.

I have had friends in the Chabad community for several years now. My family has learned with them in school and shul, and they have in general been warm and caring. However, I haven’t hesitated to take them to task for the “Rebbe Issue”, and I won’t hesitiate to take them to task for the Rubashkins issue. The more of us that do so, the harder it will be for them to not make changes.

“Ethical Kosher” is not just some left-wing concept; those Rubashkins cows are treif, plain and simple.

bShalom,

-Nathan

]]> By: Steve Engber http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/12/02/vegetarian_terrorists_attack_kosher_gian/#comment-299 Steve Engber Fri, 03 Dec 2004 12:36:14 +0000 http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/12/02/vegetarian_terrorists_attack_kosher_gian/#comment-299 No one is likely to quote me on halacha but if they were, my words might read: "The first salt on the animal should be the tear of the shochet." I live about 70 miles from Postville and have occasional interaction with the community. Contrary to the image presented in Stephen Bloom's nasty, petty expose, I have found the community, all the way up to the Rubashkins, singularly devoted to their mission. Periferally, they have brought hope and prosperity to a dying Iowa farm community. Oddly, I am not angry with PETA (as I often am) for their expose and I found the letter to the Orthodox Union to be firm and respectful. I have an upcoming celebration with the Postville community and I suspect there will be snarls of anger in the side conversations but I fully expect Agriprocessors to the the right thing and I will continue to buy my meat from them. Steve Engber No one is likely to quote me on halacha but if they were, my words might read: “The first salt on the animal should be the tear of the shochet.”

I live about 70 miles from Postville and have occasional interaction with the community. Contrary to the image presented in Stephen Bloom’s nasty, petty expose, I have found the community, all the way up to the Rubashkins, singularly devoted to their mission. Periferally, they have brought hope and prosperity to a dying Iowa farm community.

Oddly, I am not angry with PETA (as I often am) for their expose and I found the letter to the Orthodox Union to be firm and respectful.

I have an upcoming celebration with the Postville community and I suspect there will be snarls of anger in the side conversations but I fully expect Agriprocessors to the the right thing and I will continue to buy my meat from them.

Steve Engber

]]> By: mordy groner http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/12/02/vegetarian_terrorists_attack_kosher_gian/#comment-298 mordy groner Fri, 03 Dec 2004 00:45:15 +0000 http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/12/02/vegetarian_terrorists_attack_kosher_gian/#comment-298 the video was confirmed by rabbi weinreb of the ou to be legitimate. its pretty gross but what do you expect when you slaughter a 1000+ pound animal. i had two major problems with what i saw. 1. the trachea and esophegous are ripped out immediately after the animal is slaughtered. about 5 seconds after the neck is cut, a non-jewish worker removes these organs. i cannot see how this is good practice. while i am not an expert, it does seem very dubious to do this. 2. after a brief 10-20 second delay, the animal is dumped out of the holding machine (machine that holds animal upside down while shochet does his job). several of the animals seem to make noises as if they are in pain. this is a bit troubling. many of the animals are able to get up and even walk a short distance. one animal seems as if it is trying to hide or get away from his "attackers". also very troubling. many of the movements do not appear to be involuntary, signaling the animal is still somewhat conscious and able to feel pain. it made me feel sad if the animal did in fact suffer. i do not plan on giving up meat. animals are there for our use and benefit. but with this g-d given gift does come responsibilty. animals need to be killed as painlessly and respectfully as possible. everything must be done to ensure this. what i saw on the video was not respectful or painless. more could have been done and needs to be done immediately. may g-d continue to bless us with delicious steak and burgers and may we merit g-d's gifts by practicing careful and responsible shechita. the video was confirmed by rabbi weinreb of the ou to be legitimate. its pretty gross but what do you expect when you slaughter a 1000+ pound animal. i had two major problems with what i saw. 1. the trachea and esophegous are ripped out immediately after the animal is slaughtered. about 5 seconds after the neck is cut, a non-jewish worker removes these organs. i cannot see how this is good practice. while i am not an expert, it does seem very dubious to do this. 2. after a brief 10-20 second delay, the animal is dumped out of the holding machine (machine that holds animal upside down while shochet does his job). several of the animals seem to make noises as if they are in pain. this is a bit troubling. many of the animals are able to get up and even walk a short distance. one animal seems as if it is trying to hide or get away from his “attackers”. also very troubling. many of the movements do not appear to be involuntary, signaling the animal is still somewhat conscious and able to feel pain. it made me feel sad if the animal did in fact suffer.

i do not plan on giving up meat. animals are there for our use and benefit. but with this g-d given gift does come responsibilty. animals need to be killed as painlessly and respectfully as possible. everything must be done to ensure this. what i saw on the video was not respectful or painless. more could have been done and needs to be done immediately. may g-d continue to bless us with delicious steak and burgers and may we merit g-d’s gifts by practicing careful and responsible shechita.

]]> By: Beerhound http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/12/02/vegetarian_terrorists_attack_kosher_gian/#comment-297 Beerhound Thu, 02 Dec 2004 11:51:53 +0000 http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/12/02/vegetarian_terrorists_attack_kosher_gian/#comment-297 My problem is that based on their track record I am not inclined to trust PETA, and I would prefer independant confirmation that what we see on their web site is what actually goes on at that plant. Based on the inconsistencies between what we can see and what commentators and parties to this (including Rabbi Genack and Rabbi Belsky) have said they have seen, I wonder if what was shown to those people is same video that they have on their web site. My problem is that based on their track record I am not inclined to trust PETA, and I would prefer independant confirmation that what we see on their web site is what actually goes on at that plant. Based on the inconsistencies between what we can see and what commentators and parties to this (including Rabbi Genack and Rabbi Belsky) have said they have seen, I wonder if what was shown to those people is same video that they have on their web site.

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