Comments on: Shapes of the Cape http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/08/23/shapes_of_the_capeaamp_153/ Finding the finer side of everyday kosher living Tue, 06 Jan 2009 03:31:14 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: sp http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/08/23/shapes_of_the_capeaamp_153/#comment-342 sp Wed, 30 Apr 2008 16:39:21 +0000 http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/08/23/shapes_of_the_capeaamp_153/#comment-342 Michael, I agree. As I said, (paraphrasing) "the generally accepted practice is to follow the shach in this case." I just think its usefull to know why and what, hence why I posted it. Also useful to know if someone ever sticks hot cabbot cheese in your milichig dishes, probably have a good basis to say they dont need kashering. Michael, I agree. As I said, (paraphrasing) “the generally accepted practice is to follow the shach in this case.”

I just think its usefull to know why and what, hence why I posted it.

Also useful to know if someone ever sticks hot cabbot cheese in your milichig dishes, probably have a good basis to say they dont need kashering.

]]> By: Michael Rogovin http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/08/23/shapes_of_the_capeaamp_153/#comment-341 Michael Rogovin Tue, 29 Apr 2008 18:07:06 +0000 http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/08/23/shapes_of_the_capeaamp_153/#comment-341 While there are differences among the major national hechshers, modern food production (utilizing multiple sources of raw materials under different hashgachot, has led to homogenization of standards in kashrut among the major and many minor players. This tends to push the standards toward greater stringencies and chumrot being imposed. I may (and do) resent it, but I also understand the economic dynamics that lead to it. It is sadly not feasible for Cabot to pay what would have to be multiple mashgichim at a plant (plants?) that are far from any frum community and to modify production schedules for such a small market. I am grateful that they run special productions at all, though I wish they would do so for other lines of their sharp cheddars. I am familiar with Tablet K and its Rabbi. After personally being in places under his supervision and discussing his standards and practices WITH HIM, and reading the Cabot statement, I can confidently state that I do not think his standards generally meet even the most lenient orthodox community standards in general practice today. No community rabbi that I have ever discussed this with in the NY area accepts his hashgacha. He may rely on legitimate kulas, but these are no longer generally accepted (just like the Rabbis who certify gelatin may have a real point, but theirs is not the accepted practice). Sometimes its just politics, but I do not believe that it is the case here. While there are differences among the major national hechshers, modern food production (utilizing multiple sources of raw materials under different hashgachot, has led to homogenization of standards in kashrut among the major and many minor players. This tends to push the standards toward greater stringencies and chumrot being imposed. I may (and do) resent it, but I also understand the economic dynamics that lead to it. It is sadly not feasible for Cabot to pay what would have to be multiple mashgichim at a plant (plants?) that are far from any frum community and to modify production schedules for such a small market. I am grateful that they run special productions at all, though I wish they would do so for other lines of their sharp cheddars.

I am familiar with Tablet K and its Rabbi. After personally being in places under his supervision and discussing his standards and practices WITH HIM, and reading the Cabot statement, I can confidently state that I do not think his standards generally meet even the most lenient orthodox community standards in general practice today. No community rabbi that I have ever discussed this with in the NY area accepts his hashgacha. He may rely on legitimate kulas, but these are no longer generally accepted (just like the Rabbis who certify gelatin may have a real point, but theirs is not the accepted practice). Sometimes its just politics, but I do not believe that it is the case here.

]]> By: Craig Winchell http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/08/23/shapes_of_the_capeaamp_153/#comment-340 Craig Winchell Mon, 28 Apr 2008 21:49:12 +0000 http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/08/23/shapes_of_the_capeaamp_153/#comment-340 BS"D I read it, but I can't say that's how I learned it. On premise during the rennet addition, but yotzei venichnas otherwise. BS”D

I read it, but I can’t say that’s how I learned it. On premise during the rennet addition, but yotzei venichnas otherwise.

]]> By: sp http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/08/23/shapes_of_the_capeaamp_153/#comment-339 sp Sun, 27 Apr 2008 17:27:26 +0000 http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/08/23/shapes_of_the_capeaamp_153/#comment-339 you didn't read the article "This dispute has a major impact regarding the level of supervision required for the cheese making process. According to the Rama occasional inspections suffice, because the Gemara (Chullin 4a) states that “Yotzei Vinichnas Kiomeid Al Gabav Dami”, spot checks are the equivalent of constantly supervising a procedure. However, according to the Shach, a Mashgiach must be available on location to participate in the cheese making process. This explains why it is impractical for a large general company to have its cheeses certified kosher. This is why kosher cheeses are made by companies that produce cheese specifically for the observant Jewish community." you didn’t read the article

“This dispute has a major impact regarding the level of supervision required for the cheese making process. According to the Rama occasional inspections suffice, because the Gemara (Chullin 4a) states that “Yotzei Vinichnas Kiomeid Al Gabav Dami”, spot checks are the equivalent of constantly supervising a procedure. However, according to the Shach, a Mashgiach must be available on location to participate in the cheese making process. This explains why it is impractical for a large general company to have its cheeses certified kosher. This is why kosher cheeses are made by companies that produce cheese specifically for the observant Jewish community.”

]]> By: Craig Winchell http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/08/23/shapes_of_the_capeaamp_153/#comment-338 Craig Winchell Fri, 25 Apr 2008 18:18:52 +0000 http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/08/23/shapes_of_the_capeaamp_153/#comment-338 BS"D I believe most are lenient with cottage cheese, which rarely uses rennet (it's acid coagulated, like ricotta, and when it does have rennet, it's just to firm up the curd a little) but mozzarella is actually produced with rennet, and may be more of an issue. There are large cottage cheese and yogurt producers under hechsher, but few harder cheese producers, so it must be due to the leniency about yotzei venichnas vs temidis. Still, 1 large cheese company, Joseph Farms, tried to make all of their hard cheeses kosher. The result? They're no longer kosher, unfortunately. BS”D

I believe most are lenient with cottage cheese, which rarely uses rennet (it’s acid coagulated, like ricotta, and when it does have rennet, it’s just to firm up the curd a little) but mozzarella is actually produced with rennet, and may be more of an issue. There are large cottage cheese and yogurt producers under hechsher, but few harder cheese producers, so it must be due to the leniency about yotzei venichnas vs temidis. Still, 1 large cheese company, Joseph Farms, tried to make all of their hard cheeses kosher. The result? They’re no longer kosher, unfortunately.

]]> By: rob http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/08/23/shapes_of_the_capeaamp_153/#comment-337 rob Fri, 25 Apr 2008 17:07:41 +0000 http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/08/23/shapes_of_the_capeaamp_153/#comment-337 Just to understand, I am not coming for a halachic learned knowledge. but is the question of temidis vs yotzei vkninas, matter if the cheese has rennet or not. for instance, mozzarella, cottage etc, maybe doesn't require temidis, b/c there is no rennett, while cheddar needs it b/c there is rennet ??? rob Just to understand, I am not coming for a halachic learned knowledge. but is the question of temidis vs yotzei vkninas, matter if the cheese has rennet or not.
for instance, mozzarella, cottage etc, maybe doesn’t require temidis, b/c there is no rennett, while cheddar needs it b/c there is rennet
???
rob

]]> By: Craig Winchell http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/08/23/shapes_of_the_capeaamp_153/#comment-336 Craig Winchell Fri, 25 Apr 2008 14:36:55 +0000 http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/08/23/shapes_of_the_capeaamp_153/#comment-336 BS"D Sp, I believe you misunderstand. The Rema believes that temidis is sufficient, while the Shach paskens that either a Jewish-owned cheese production (by a yiras shomayim) or Jewish participation is required. Nobody allowed yotzei venichnas. You can make the argument that temidis may be required only at the time of the addition of the rennet, and the rest of the time yotzei venichnas is sufficient, but there's no question that a reliable Jew must be there at the time of addition of rennet. Now let's look at practical considerations: if he's there, he might as well add the rennet. If he's not there (at that time), then the cheese isn't kosher by standards of most communities, or indeed the Rema. BS”D

Sp, I believe you misunderstand. The Rema believes that temidis is sufficient, while the Shach paskens that either a Jewish-owned cheese production (by a yiras shomayim) or Jewish participation is required. Nobody allowed yotzei venichnas. You can make the argument that temidis may be required only at the time of the addition of the rennet, and the rest of the time yotzei venichnas is sufficient, but there’s no question that a reliable Jew must be there at the time of addition of rennet. Now let’s look at practical considerations: if he’s there, he might as well add the rennet. If he’s not there (at that time), then the cheese isn’t kosher by standards of most communities, or indeed the Rema.

]]> By: sp http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/08/23/shapes_of_the_capeaamp_153/#comment-335 sp Fri, 25 Apr 2008 09:09:35 +0000 http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/08/23/shapes_of_the_capeaamp_153/#comment-335 see R. Jachter's essay on this http://www.koltorah.org/ravj/13-10%20Gevinat%20Akum%20-%20Part%20I.htm see R. Jachter’s essay on this

http://www.koltorah.org/ravj/13-10%20Gevinat%20Akum%20-%20Part%20I.htm

]]> By: sp http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/08/23/shapes_of_the_capeaamp_153/#comment-334 sp Fri, 25 Apr 2008 09:03:43 +0000 http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/08/23/shapes_of_the_capeaamp_153/#comment-334 Craig: I think the temidi/place in vat is a chumra of the shach, while the Rema would indicate that one just needs yotzei v'nichnas. The generally accepted practice became a while ago to pasken like the Shach in this case. But I could be remembering wrong. Craig: I think the temidi/place in vat is a chumra of the shach, while the Rema would indicate that one just needs yotzei v’nichnas.

The generally accepted practice became a while ago to pasken like the Shach in this case.

But I could be remembering wrong.

]]> By: Craig Winchell http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/08/23/shapes_of_the_capeaamp_153/#comment-333 Craig Winchell Fri, 25 Apr 2008 07:51:36 +0000 http://www.kosherblog.net/2004/08/23/shapes_of_the_capeaamp_153/#comment-333 Sp, I wouldn't state things in quite the way you just did. According to that article, the OU requires temidis during the entire production (the minimum standard) and also requires rennet to be added by a Jew (the maximum standard). Yotzei venichnas, because it's not full time temidis, doesn't qualify as even within the bounds of accepted standards. Because the temidis standard has been accepted for around a couple thousand years as a minimum standard, it's hard to justify yotzei venichnas as being within halachic discourse, as there's no basis in halachic literature. Sp, I wouldn’t state things in quite the way you just did. According to that article, the OU requires temidis during the entire production (the minimum standard) and also requires rennet to be added by a Jew (the maximum standard). Yotzei venichnas, because it’s not full time temidis, doesn’t qualify as even within the bounds of accepted standards. Because the temidis standard has been accepted for around a couple thousand years as a minimum standard, it’s hard to justify yotzei venichnas as being within halachic discourse, as there’s no basis in halachic literature.

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