Comments on: Poor Wilbur . . .

By: Uri

Uri — Thu, 29 Jan 2004 10:47:28 +0000

I would guess that if we were still doing such things, he would not recieve malkos, since his intention was to violate one issur [neveila/treyfa] and he violated another. In that sense he would be considered a shogeg.Again with re: laws of preparing kosher meat and pig, we would apply ein issur chal al issur, in other words once pig is not kosher, we don’t care how you shecht it, if you boil it in its mother’s [or whoever's] milk.

By: Dave

Dave — Thu, 29 Jan 2004 03:53:11 +0000

Uri- you seem to know halacha, do the laws of preparing kosher meat apply to a pig, etc.? also, i am unsure of where to look, but i am pretty sure the above case would still be a meizid, because the person is purposely eating a biblical issur, and i am pretty sure shogeg would be where the intent is to not be oiver any issur, unless since it is a different issur he would not be responsible for eating chazer, what do you think?

By: Uri

Uri — Thu, 29 Jan 2004 00:37:56 +0000

You’re wrong about the halacha. Treyf veal is a d’oraysa of neveila or treyfa. Pork is a de’oraysa of non Kosher meat. Same level of prohibition. No "additional" prohibitions to speak of. Dave- MJ is correct ein issur chal al issur would apply to pork.

By: Dave

Dave — Wed, 28 Jan 2004 18:56:06 +0000

I am not so sure that is accurate MJ, I will look up the gedarim of ayn issur chal al issur, i think it is only in reference to Beis Din punishing, but you are still "oiver" the issur midinei shamayim. Also, i am just curious, if you eat pig beshogeg, but treif bemeizid, what the law would be…although i can’t imagine that the dinnim of kashrus apply to eating Pig,etc… (i.e. if one had a heter to eat pig, does it need to be prepared within all the guidlines of kashrus?) I will look into these halachos tonight, and post my findings.

By: MJ

MJ — Wed, 28 Jan 2004 18:32:55 +0000

There is no "additional prohibition of eating a pig." There are two distinct prohibitions, one of eating pig, one of eating treyfa. Eating veal killed in a manner not prescribed by halacha violates trayfa. Eating pig violates the prohibition of eating pig (and camel and rabbit etc.) Since "ayn issur chal al issur", when you eat pig that is also trayfa, you only violate the prohibition of eating pig. However, I do see some (minor) value in attempting to follow the spirit of jewish law. (though it becomes rather diminished when the person in question clearly knows what he is doing is not halachikly aceptable.

By: Dave

Dave — Wed, 28 Jan 2004 18:07:43 +0000

Firstly, you probably shouldn’t comment on The halachos of Shogeg and Meizid without being aware of all the guidlines of when we attribute shogeg to a person’s actions. Also, see Steven I.’s Response on protocols. Your arguments hold no water from a halachic standpoint. although you are right from a basic ethical standpoint. It is clearly wrong to put one in a sitaution where they unintentionally violate their personal customs. And it is somewhat commendable for Brenner to not want to eat Pig for traditionally Jewish reasons, but it in no way encompasses halachic standards.

By: elf

elf — Wed, 28 Jan 2004 15:57:45 +0000

i couldn’t agree with you more.